Transcending Proof

[Fundagelico]

I haven't posted here in a while, but for anyone interested, the Secular Web just published a paper of mine, a rebuttal to Richard Carrier's argument that the nonexistence of God can be easily proven:

http://infidels.org/library/modern/don_ ... proof.html

I realize that many atheists and skeptics do not believe theism to be falsifiable. For those who do believe theism to be falsifiable, I'll try to stick around and answer any serious or substantive counterarguments.

Questions for debate:

1. Do you believe that theism (particularly Christian theism) is falsifiable?

2. If yes, how would you propose to falsify it?

3. If no, why do you believe it to be false?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 19 by Tired of the Nonsense]

I am saying to be skeptical. Nonsense is subjective. For example, your argument against Christianity was nonsense to me but may not have been nonsense to you, thus we would have differing things to be skeptical of.

Is a flying reanimated corpse nonsense? Or is it subjective?

[SnpM]

It's that you refuse to believe that a person can be revived from the dead when thousands of doctors do that every single day in the country you live in. Also, flying reanimated corpses are kinda nonsense. Maybe the Christ of birds?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

It's that you refuse to believe that a person can be revived from the dead when thousands of doctors do that every single day in the country you live in. Also, flying reanimated corpses are kinda nonsense. Maybe the Christ of birds?

As a wise man once said: "There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead." Mostly dead is not dead at all. It's still living, even in cases where the heart has stopped. People in this condition can be revived. All dead is completely brain dead. Completely brain dead is a corpse. Corpse's doing anything at all ever again besides decaying, most especially flying, is nonsense according to all observation and experience. So where do you stand on this most important of Christian claims?

[SnpM]

In response to the wise man's claim:
1. Who is this wise man?
2. What is death? When the person's heart stops? When his brain shuts down because of blood deprivation? When his soul leaves his body? Mostly dead and dead don't mean anything without defining what dead is, and it seems like we have different definitions.

On 'most important of Christian claims' I stand by the Bible. The most important of Christian claims to me and my perspectives on them are as follows:

God does indeed exist and he loves us as I love every one of my projects. We are his creations, albeit buggy creations, but he still loves us and is constantly tweaking us to become better. I like to think that the world is a huge simulation and God is the programmer. Every chemical reaction, emotion, thought , DNA sequence, and blade of grass was programmed by God.

Heaven and Hell do exist, and people who don't believe in God go to Hell. What is Hell to me? The unquenchable fire: Oblivion. What is Heaven? Eternal life: Legacy.

[Zzyzx]

.

What is death? When the person's heart stops? When his brain shuts down because of blood deprivation? When his soul leaves his body? Mostly dead and dead don't mean anything without defining what dead is, and it seems like we have different definitions.

Although there is some dispute as to what constitutes the "instant of death", forensics does provide information about what occurs to the body that can be regarded as indication that the person has died.

Moment of Death:
1} The heart stops
2} The skin gets tight and grey in color
3} All the muscles relax
4} The bladder and bowels empty
5} The body's temperature will typically drop 1.5 degrees F. per hour unless outside environment is a factor. The liver is the organ that stays warmest the longest, and this temperature is used to establish time of death if the body is found within that time frame.
After 30 minutes:
6} The skin gets purple and waxy
7} The lips, finger- and toe nails fade to a pale color or turn white as the blood leaves.
8} Blood pools at the lowest parts of the body leaving a dark purple-black stain called lividity
9} The hands and feet turn blue
10} The eyes start to sink into the skull
After 4 hours:
11} Rigor mortis starts to set in
12} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue
13} Rigor Mortis begins to tighten the muscles for about another 24 hours, then will reverse and the body will return to a limp state.
After 12 hours:
14} The body is in full rigor mortis.
After 24 hours:
15} The body is now the temperature of the surrounding environment
16} In males, the semen dies
17} The head and neck are now a greenish-blue color
18} The greenish-blue color continues to spread to the rest of the body
19} There is the strong smell of rotting meat
20} The face of the person is essentially no longer recognizable
After 3 days:
21} The gases in the body tissues form large blisters on the skin
22} The whole body begins to bloat and swell grotesquely. This process is speeded up if victim is in a hot environment, or in water
23} Fluids leak from the mouth, nose, eyes, ears and rectum and urinary opening
After 3 weeks:
24} The skin, hair, and nails are so loose they can be easily pulled off the corpse
25} The skin cracks and bursts open in many places because of the pressure of Internal gases and the breakdown of the skin itself
26} Decomposition will continue until body is nothing but skeletal remains, which can take as little as a month in hot climates and two months in cold climates. The teeth are often the only thing left, years and centuries later, because tooth enamel is the strongest substance in the body. The jawbone is the densest, so that usually will also remain.
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Death/Stages.html

Apply this to tales of dead bodies coming back to life after days in the grave.

When his soul leaves his body?

"Soul" is a religious concept that has not been shown to be anything more than imagination. When it "leaves the body" is a hypothetical question about a hypothetical event.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 10 by SnpM]

I don't see the relevance to any of my claims. I too am a determinist (moreso than you, as it seems you believe in a special initial state (that is itself indetermined)), and incidentally am doing a course on games programming.

As for saying that claims or hypotheses "are assumed to be both true and false" - no, it is not assumed to be either. I say I'm holding up a certain number of fingers from both hands, and I ask you if you believe it's odd or even, you shouldn't believe either and you can't consistently believe both. Instead, you don't hold a belief as to whether it is odd or even.

Similarly, one who does not hold belief in a god (a weak atheist) is making no assumptions, nor do they need to prove anything. It is the one who claims he exists or doesn't who must provide the evidence. The latter is the issue of this thread.

Though no matter how little or non-existent the proof is for "God doesn't exist", theism will be no more justified. If you dismantle every argument a strong atheist gives you, without putting forward a single argument for theism, at best you make a weak atheist.

I'd comment on the heaven and hell bit, but it's well beyond the scope of the thread.

[SnpM]

So how would you define death? The moment the heartbeat stops? See, this is where we differ on the matter. Also, we can back someone from death-like states - no pulse, brain, or liver function, with modern technology after an entire week. Why do you believe this would be so difficult for a supernatural being or force?

@Jashwell
That's an interesting idea, that there wasn't ever an initial state of the universe. Actually, the initial state of the universe is probably the biggest thing going for God and that's the most significant subject about him - not his opinion on homosexuals.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 24 by SnpM]

In response to the wise man's claim:
1. Who is this wise man?

Miracle Max; "The Princess Bride." It's actually true, however. The trick is to be in a position of taking advantage of the situation before mostly dead become all dead.

2. What is death? When the person's heart stops?

Nope! Life continues on in the rest of the tissues until the oxygen supply is used up. This is known as ischemic injury. It's a cumulative injury that will become irreversibly fatal unless the blood can be re-oxygenated. Surgeons regularly stop heart functions while doing heart surgery, but keep the patient's blood oxygenated through mechanical means until the procedure is completed. The heart may be stopped for hours, but the patient is not dead. True death (all dead) occurs as a result of a cumulative death of cells due to lack of oxygen to the point that life functions can no longer be sustained.

*****
National institutes of Health

Brain cells are extremely sensitive to a lack of oxygen. Some brain cells start dying less than 5 minutes after their oxygen supply disappears. As a result, brain hypoxia can rapidly cause severe brain damage or death. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001435.htm

*****
University of Michigan Heart Transplant Center

After five to ten minutes of not breathing, you are likely to develop serious and possibly irreversible brain damage. The one exception is when a younger person stops breathing and also becomes very cold at the same time. This can occur when a child is suddenly plunged into very cold water and drowns. In this situation, survival after more than 30 minutes has been known to occur.

1 minute: Brain cells begin to die, but survival is possible.
3 minutes. Serious brain damage likely.
10 minutes Many brain cells have died; the patient is unlikely to recover.
15 minutes Recovery is virtually impossible.
http://www.transweb.org/faq/q3.shtml

*****

When his brain shuts down because of blood deprivation?

That about it. Total brain death is the end of the line.

When his soul leaves his body?

You just made that up, so it has no meaningful criterion.

Mostly dead and dead don't mean anything without defining what dead is, and it seems like we have different definitions.

Mostly dead, as we see in "The Princess Bride," is a point at which a person can still be revived. In actual practice there may be lingering effects of being mostly dead, such as brain or organ damage. In lived happily ever after stories however, everything generally turn out fine.

[SnpM]

The border for death has always been very sinuous and unclear. Death in the past was the moment a person closed his eyes, whereas we can sustain a person who lost many major organ functions for a considerably long period of time. What about 500 years in the future? Will people get to respawn like they do in Call of Duty? The superstition of the past steps not too far from the imagination of the future.

By the way, we can still keep a person alive after brain death. They just won't be conscious again.

[Jashwell]

[Replying to post 27 by SnpM]

I didn't say there wasn't an initial state of the Universe, I said I didn't believe in a special, indeterminate initial state.

In other words, it's just as meaningful to me to say "everything is determined from tomorrow at 3PM" as it is to say "everything is determined from the beginning of time".

Why mention that his opinion on homosexuals is insignificant? Does he hold a controversial position?

I don't see reason to believe the claim that death was ever from eye closure, but it is surprising to me that you would call "flying reanimated corpses" "like nonsense" but are now trying to justify reanimation. Does the Bible mention how Jesus was brought back less than a few hours after brain death, or does it say that he died and then appeared a few days later? Did the Bible forget to mention the 21st century doctors operating on Jesus?