A question for christians

[thenormalyears]

You believe in a God that is all knowing, he knows the past, present and the future, correct?

[Goat]

Actually, he just backed up his assertions with scripture refferences from the old testament. The case of Jacob is a pretty clear indication of the preincarnate Christ.

You also assert that Jews would not worship Christ as God. Have you forgotten that ALL of the original believers were Jewish?

No, there is no such thing as a 'preincarnate' Christ in the Tankah.

And, the original believers did not become Christians. The concepts of 'virgin birth', 'salvation', and 'original sin' were not taken from the Jewish religion, but were grafted on hellenized Jews, or Gentile converts. The Gospels that are most true to the Jewish religon are not the synoptic gospels, which teach those heresies.

[Easyrider]

No, there is no such thing as a 'preincarnate' Christ in the Tankah.

Sure there is, in the form of "THE Angel of the Lord" and other theophanies where God is viewed as a man.

And, the original believers did not become Christians.

They became followers of Christ (same thing). And they first were known as Christians in Antioch.

The concepts of 'virgin birth', 'salvation', and 'original sin' were not taken from the Jewish religion, but were grafted on hellenized Jews, or Gentile converts.

The Gospels tell a different story. They were ALL Jews at first, and the New Testament is confirmed to be a continuation and fulfillment of the Jewish religion.

The Gospels that are most true to the Jewish religon are not the synoptic gospels, which teach those heresies.

No heresies, just your allegation. And since the same God is the author of it, I'll take his accounts over yours.

[Goat]

Hogwash. It busts your argument wide open.

Could you explain to me what argument you busted wide open and how?
You seem to say that often and I have yet to see your victory.

That's your twisted spin. I've always claimed that Christ is the eternal God, and that eventually in time he incarnated. Let that sink in for awhile so you don't make the same mistakes again in trying to represent my views.

I don’t think we have a hard time understanding you. I see claiming Jesus the man as eternal God and preexisting as almost idolatry. You don’t even have a good grasp of the trinity as a historical understanding of Jesus as the son.

I think one day you'll find to your chagrin that you should have been listening, rather than denying.

I guess you can always dream.

I don't give any credence to your interpretations. They've already been busted.

Again you brag with out cause. It seems we have an inconsistant bible record. No one has seen God and you claim he is a man. He is called a man of war and said not to be like man. Maybe you have a poor interpretaion?

Looks like you also need to study up more on the deity of Christ in both the Old and New Testaments.

And here's some more for you:

The Angel of the Lord

Jesus is the same God who gave the Ten Commandments to Moses. In the Burning Bush episode it was "THE Angel of the Lord" who spoke with Moses. "Angel" in that passage can certainly mean messenger (as opposed to a strict angel) since the exact same Hebrew word is used as messenger in Malachi 3:1 ("Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty."

Here, the messenger is the Lord they are seeking who will come to the temple, which is also a Messianic passage.

"The testimony of the early Fathers on the theophanies of Christ in the Old Testament is full and conclusive.

Justin Martyr declared: “Our Christ conversed with Moses out of the bush, in the appearance of fire. And Moses received great strength from Christ, who spake to him in the appearance of fire.”

Irenaeus wrote: “The Scripture is full of the Son of God’s appearing: sometimes to talk and eat with Abraham, at other times to instruct Noah about the measures of the ark; at another time to seek Adam; at another time to bring down judgment upon Sodom; then again, to direct Jacob in the way; and again, to converse with Moses out of the bush.”

Tertullian stated, “It was the Son who judged men from the beginning, destroying that lofty tower, and confounding their languages, punishing the whole world with a flood of waters, and raining fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah, the Lord pouring it down from the Lord: for he always descended to hold converse with men, from Adam even to the patriarchs and prophets, in visions, in dreams, in mirrors, in dark sentences, always preparing his way from the beginning: neither was it possible, that God who conversed with men upon earth, could be any other than that Word which was to be made flesh.”

Quotations from Richard Watson, Theological Institutes, I, 501,502. Watson also cites Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, Theophilus of Antioch, the synod of Antioch, Cyprian, Hilary, St. Basil, and others as holding the same viewpoint of theophanies of Christ in the Old Testament.

Judges 13:20-22
20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the ANGEL of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground.
21 Now the ANGEL of the LORD did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the ANGEL of the LORD.
22 So Manoah said to his wife, "We will surely die, for we have seen God."

Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before THE angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 THE Angel (of the Lord) said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes."
Then he (The Angel of the Lord) said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."

Since only the Lord God can take away sin, the example is clear.

http://preceptaustin.org/angel_of_the_lord.htm

Jesus is God!

Hum. how amusing. Angel, in heberw 'Malachi' by the way (and he is making a pun there) means 'Messagner'

So, the Angel of the lord is the messanger of the lord.

The messanger is not the person who dictates the message.

[Easyrider]

Hogwash. It busts your argument wide open.

Could you explain to me what argument you busted wide open and how?
You seem to say that often and I have yet to see your victory.

That's your twisted spin. I've always claimed that Christ is the eternal God, and that eventually in time he incarnated. Let that sink in for awhile so you don't make the same mistakes again in trying to represent my views.

I don’t think we have a hard time understanding you. I see claiming Jesus the man as eternal God and preexisting as almost idolatry. You don’t even have a good grasp of the trinity as a historical understanding of Jesus as the son.

I think one day you'll find to your chagrin that you should have been listening, rather than denying.

I guess you can always dream.

I don't give any credence to your interpretations. They've already been busted.

Again you brag with out cause. It seems we have an inconsistant bible record. No one has seen God and you claim he is a man. He is called a man of war and said not to be like man. Maybe you have a poor interpretaion?

Looks like you also need to study up more on the deity of Christ in both the Old and New Testaments.

And here's some more for you:

The Angel of the Lord

Jesus is the same God who gave the Ten Commandments to Moses. In the Burning Bush episode it was "THE Angel of the Lord" who spoke with Moses. "Angel" in that passage can certainly mean messenger (as opposed to a strict angel) since the exact same Hebrew word is used as messenger in Malachi 3:1 ("Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty."

Here, the messenger is the Lord they are seeking who will come to the temple, which is also a Messianic passage.

"The testimony of the early Fathers on the theophanies of Christ in the Old Testament is full and conclusive.

Justin Martyr declared: “Our Christ conversed with Moses out of the bush, in the appearance of fire. And Moses received great strength from Christ, who spake to him in the appearance of fire.”

Irenaeus wrote: “The Scripture is full of the Son of God’s appearing: sometimes to talk and eat with Abraham, at other times to instruct Noah about the measures of the ark; at another time to seek Adam; at another time to bring down judgment upon Sodom; then again, to direct Jacob in the way; and again, to converse with Moses out of the bush.”

Tertullian stated, “It was the Son who judged men from the beginning, destroying that lofty tower, and confounding their languages, punishing the whole world with a flood of waters, and raining fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah, the Lord pouring it down from the Lord: for he always descended to hold converse with men, from Adam even to the patriarchs and prophets, in visions, in dreams, in mirrors, in dark sentences, always preparing his way from the beginning: neither was it possible, that God who conversed with men upon earth, could be any other than that Word which was to be made flesh.”

Quotations from Richard Watson, Theological Institutes, I, 501,502. Watson also cites Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, Theophilus of Antioch, the synod of Antioch, Cyprian, Hilary, St. Basil, and others as holding the same viewpoint of theophanies of Christ in the Old Testament.

Judges 13:20-22
20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the ANGEL of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground.
21 Now the ANGEL of the LORD did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the ANGEL of the LORD.
22 So Manoah said to his wife, "We will surely die, for we have seen God."

Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before THE angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 THE Angel (of the Lord) said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes."
Then he (The Angel of the Lord) said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."

Since only the Lord God can take away sin, the example is clear.

http://preceptaustin.org/angel_of_the_lord.htm

Jesus is God!

Hum. how amusing. Angel, in heberw 'Malachi' by the way (and he is making a pun there) means 'Messagner'

So, the Angel of the lord is the messanger of the lord.

The messanger is not the person who dictates the message.

John 7:16 "Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me." Which in no way diminishes the deity of Christ as is evidenced in numerous passages.

"Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the Lord of hosts. "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. Malachi 3;1-2

Here Malachi tells us, the Lord - the Messenger (same Hebrew word used in the burning bush account) of the Covenant will come to His Temple.

And look at the work of this "Lord and Messenger": Who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? He is like a refiner's fire.

When is enough, enough?

[Cathar1950]

John 7:16 "Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me." Which in no way diminishes the deity of Christ as is evidenced in numerous passages.

Would that not seem to indicate Jesus is not God incarnate? His teaching was not his but his who sent him?

[Goat]

Hogwash. It busts your argument wide open.

Could you explain to me what argument you busted wide open and how?
You seem to say that often and I have yet to see your victory.

That's your twisted spin. I've always claimed that Christ is the eternal God, and that eventually in time he incarnated. Let that sink in for awhile so you don't make the same mistakes again in trying to represent my views.

I don’t think we have a hard time understanding you. I see claiming Jesus the man as eternal God and preexisting as almost idolatry. You don’t even have a good grasp of the trinity as a historical understanding of Jesus as the son.

I think one day you'll find to your chagrin that you should have been listening, rather than denying.

I guess you can always dream.

I don't give any credence to your interpretations. They've already been busted.

Again you brag with out cause. It seems we have an inconsistant bible record. No one has seen God and you claim he is a man. He is called a man of war and said not to be like man. Maybe you have a poor interpretaion?

Looks like you also need to study up more on the deity of Christ in both the Old and New Testaments.

And here's some more for you:

The Angel of the Lord

Jesus is the same God who gave the Ten Commandments to Moses. In the Burning Bush episode it was "THE Angel of the Lord" who spoke with Moses. "Angel" in that passage can certainly mean messenger (as opposed to a strict angel) since the exact same Hebrew word is used as messenger in Malachi 3:1 ("Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty."

Here, the messenger is the Lord they are seeking who will come to the temple, which is also a Messianic passage.

"The testimony of the early Fathers on the theophanies of Christ in the Old Testament is full and conclusive.

Justin Martyr declared: “Our Christ conversed with Moses out of the bush, in the appearance of fire. And Moses received great strength from Christ, who spake to him in the appearance of fire.”

Irenaeus wrote: “The Scripture is full of the Son of God’s appearing: sometimes to talk and eat with Abraham, at other times to instruct Noah about the measures of the ark; at another time to seek Adam; at another time to bring down judgment upon Sodom; then again, to direct Jacob in the way; and again, to converse with Moses out of the bush.”

Tertullian stated, “It was the Son who judged men from the beginning, destroying that lofty tower, and confounding their languages, punishing the whole world with a flood of waters, and raining fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah, the Lord pouring it down from the Lord: for he always descended to hold converse with men, from Adam even to the patriarchs and prophets, in visions, in dreams, in mirrors, in dark sentences, always preparing his way from the beginning: neither was it possible, that God who conversed with men upon earth, could be any other than that Word which was to be made flesh.”

Quotations from Richard Watson, Theological Institutes, I, 501,502. Watson also cites Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, Theophilus of Antioch, the synod of Antioch, Cyprian, Hilary, St. Basil, and others as holding the same viewpoint of theophanies of Christ in the Old Testament.

Judges 13:20-22
20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the ANGEL of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground.
21 Now the ANGEL of the LORD did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the ANGEL of the LORD.
22 So Manoah said to his wife, "We will surely die, for we have seen God."

Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before THE angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 THE Angel (of the Lord) said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes."
Then he (The Angel of the Lord) said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."

Since only the Lord God can take away sin, the example is clear.

http://preceptaustin.org/angel_of_the_lord.htm

Jesus is God!

Hum. how amusing. Angel, in heberw 'Malachi' by the way (and he is making a pun there) means 'Messagner'

So, the Angel of the lord is the messanger of the lord.

The messanger is not the person who dictates the message.

John 7:16 "Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me." Which in no way diminishes the deity of Christ as is evidenced in numerous passages.

"Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the Lord of hosts. "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. Malachi 3;1-2

Here Malachi tells us, the Lord - the Messenger (same Hebrew word used in the burning bush account) of the Covenant will come to His Temple.

And look at the work of this "Lord and Messenger": Who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? He is like a refiner's fire.

When is enough, enough?

Nope, not at all. Malachi was not talking about Jesus. The lord is not Jesus. Malachi was talking about the Messanger of the Lord.

What Jesus said or did not say is irrelavent to the passages in Malachi.

[Easyrider]

Nope, not at all. Malachi was not talking about Jesus. The lord is not Jesus. Malachi was talking about the Messanger of the Lord.

What Jesus said or did not say is irrelavent to the passages in Malachi.

Well, Jesus (God himself) differs with you. He correctly stated that the Law and the Prophets wrote about him, and a review of all the respective Messianic passages gives us a compelling portrait so clear that it cannot be denied with a straight face.

[Goat]

Nope, not at all. Malachi was not talking about Jesus. The lord is not Jesus. Malachi was talking about the Messanger of the Lord.

What Jesus said or did not say is irrelavent to the passages in Malachi.

Well, Jesus (God himself) differs with you. He correctly stated that the Law and the Prophets wrote about him, and a review of all the respective Messianic passages gives us a compelling portrait so clear that it cannot be denied with a straight face.

It is your assumption that Jesus is God. I do not accept that assumption. As a matter of fact, thinking that a man is God is very much against my religion.

The so call 'messanic' passages the Christians use are taken out of context, distorted, mistranslated, and/or shoehorned into place. None of them predict 'Jesus' at all.

[Easyrider]

As a matter of fact, thinking that a man is God is very much against my religion.

And which religion is that? Care to identify and defend it or don't you think it can stand up to some scrutiny?

The so call 'messanic' passages the Christians use are taken out of context, distorted, mistranslated, and/or shoehorned into place. None of them predict 'Jesus' at all.

Nonsense. The Word of God and a proper exegesis refutes this self-serving notion, as has been repeatedly demonstrated in these fora.

[Goat]

As a matter of fact, thinking that a man is God is very much against my religion.

And which religion is that? Care to identify and defend it or don't you think it can stand up to some scrutiny?

I have identified it a few times here. I am sorry if you are unable to follow things. However, I don't feel that I have to 'give it out on demand', particularly when someone is being as rude as you.

The so call 'messianic' passages the Christians use are taken out of context, distorted, mistranslated, and/or shoehorned into place. None of them predict 'Jesus' at all.

Nonsense. The Word of God and a proper exegesis refutes this self-serving notion, as has been repeatedly demonstrated in these fora.

You keep on telling yourself that. Of course, I don't believe you have the 'Word of God', and I am certain you don't have the 'proper exegesis. You keep on claiming victory. Those claims are hollow.