Christians Forget

[Excubis]

So time to stir the pot. Having been atheist then a very devout christian for 5 years, but then seeing the false hoods and contradictions I stepped away and would label myself a agnostic. As a christian I was single and I stayed celibate throughout that time while taking my doctorate at University of Calgary in anthropology, it is at this time while researching the historical record of christianity I became very aware of the misinformation and lack of integrity that came with it. I should state I started a bible study which grew to at it's peak to 227 people and still goes on today. I was going to become a pasture and go to bible college sponsored by my church. I did interviews with Calgary Sun, was on Shine fm and had a weekly show where I talked about my past as a con artist and criminal and how coming to christ saved me from that life. I established a non-profit for troubled youth and brought many into the faith. Yet there was an unending string of questions that no one could answer, not the bible, and no I never heard the word of god ever. I was dumped by multiple christian girls because I wouldn't fool around and did not want to marry at this time. One girl of which was the daughter of a very prominent evangelist who will not be named. I soon could not reconcile a god of love and the idea of the devil but I digress.

Through out my time as christian I blamed catholicism for the negative perception of christianity. Now doing my doctorate, I was going to do a comprehensive study on ancient christianity in Rome before the council of Nincea and the persecution of christians by Rome. I was flabbergasted, nearly floored at what I found, it not only shook my faith but my very identity at that time. I found historical reference after historical reference, on the christians and all were damming. In all accounts written before christianity took a strong hold in Rome it was the christians who were the aggressors not the Romans. They killed priest and priestesses, burned, raided towns, kidnapped officials, committed assassinations, and it just kept going on and on. You see most people aren't aware that the feeding to lions thing in ancient Rome was a form of capital punishment reserved for those who committed some of the worst crimes. It should also be known the Romans actually practice freedom of religion so long as the religion did not suppress another.

In territories they conquered those inhabitants were still free to practice their own religion as per the bible shows. This I was well aware of from my studies before but was blinded by faith about the so called persecutions of christians by Rome. There is no evidence anywhere to support the peaceful loving christian ideology that is attempted to be portrayed now(except Ethiopia). I also blindly accept man was against god thats why Jesus was crucified and why Saul (later to be Paul) was hunting them down before he converted. I honestly could go on and on but I won't right now.

So upon these revelations I spoke to my pasture and he wouldn't listen at all blinded by faith and fear. I went on to pray deeply for Jesus to revel some greater truth and it did not occur. I left the faith scared I would perhaps fall into my old life but I did not, I did not need god to be a good and moral person that was a choice base solely on me. After receiving my Phd. I went to Peru and worked with a team at the Sechin Bajo ruins in September of 2007. I was there for 2 years during which time I traveled south america digging threw files and files of christian paper work mainly catholic and found the same thing all over but in incredible, insidious, methodical manner of manipulation of a destroyed people to convert them.

I am withholding my name because I am just too busy for most part and generally get to many contacts about all this but here is reason for my post. WHY DO CHRISTIAN HIDE BEHIND DOGMA AND DOCTRINE AND NOT ACCEPT THE LITERALLY BILLIONS THAT HAVE BEEN KILLED FOR NOT BELIEVING IN CHRIST. ALWAYS SIDE STEP OR BLAME THE DEVIL. One thing I know for sure is there is not one passage in the bible that gives that much power to the devil anywhere. Now this is especially true for the new testament, the bible in it's entirety only says the devil can influence but not create but if Jesus died on the cross and the blood sealed the sacrament that means devil has no more power especially for those who invoke Jesus's name so why would such bad people be able to invoke Jesus's name and carry out such EVIL EVIL deeds in the world. I will be around for next 3 days then who knows when I'll be around and if the christian use bible verses just wait I own 42 bibles of varying faiths and age, which I have read all. Bring it on. I have also writen a book on my findings and is currently being edited and I will probably have to revise before it is published but am hoping to hit shelves in time for CHRISTMAS THIS YEAR, I will post when available. Also I know my grammar and punctuation isn't the best in this post but I'm tired and don't really care right now, so if you need to pick me a part over non sequential causalities then so be it, that has by no means taken away from my ability to articulate my point of view.

[otseng]

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[rookiebatman]

Through out my time as christian I blamed catholicism for the negative perception of christianity. Now doing my doctorate, I was going to do a comprehensive study on ancient christianity in Rome before the council of Nincea and the persecution of christians by Rome. I was flabbergasted, nearly floored at what I found, it not only shook my faith but my very identity at that time. I found historical reference after historical reference, on the christians and all were damming. In all accounts written before christianity took a strong hold in Rome it was the christians who were the aggressors not the Romans. They killed priest and priestesses, burned, raided towns, kidnapped officials, committed assassinations, and it just kept going on and on. You see most people aren't aware that the feeding to lions thing in ancient Rome was a form of capital punishment reserved for those who committed some of the worst crimes. It should also be known the Romans actually practice freedom of religion so long as the religion did not suppress another.

In territories they conquered those inhabitants were still free to practice their own religion as per the bible shows. This I was well aware of from my studies before but was blinded by faith about the so called persecutions of christians by Rome. There is no evidence anywhere to support the peaceful loving christian ideology that is attempted to be portrayed now(except Ethiopia). I also blindly accept man was against god thats why Jesus was crucified and why Saul (later to be Paul) was hunting them down before he converted. I honestly could go on and on but I won't right now.

Not that I'm accusing you of dishonesty, because I think your point about Roman freedom of religion being evident even in the Bible itself makes sense, but can you cite some sources in case I want to bring evidence of this claim to people I know who are Christians and wouldn't accept anything but hard facts? Even then, I think they'd probably react like your pastor, but it's still worth a try.

[Excubis]

[Replying to post 3 by rookiebatman]

Unfortunately nearly all my work will introducing new sources of recently cataloged or translated work that isn't available to the general public. What I mean is I could put up catalog reference numbers but would be of very little help for internet research unless you have access to university databases and can go physically and investigate. Also I do not think my publisher would not appreciate me doing this.

There are a couple of minor references to such evils or abominations of the christains that are easily found such as published translation of the works of Tacticus and Josephus. What I have found does not label them christians this appears in Rome roughly around 60 a.d. but I have made correlations to references to groups charged with crimes of varying degrees that threw my studies represent christian philosophy in their actions but are not referred to as christains. In many cases they are referred to as Jews and in others as evil combatants. I would go into more depth but that is what my book is for. Others that you maybe able to find on internet are Suetonius and perhaps Pliny the Younger but these references lack information on what the christians were convicted of. Also if you buy some back issue of the Anthropologica some of my findings are with in. Which one's not saying simply because I legally am not suppose to reference my work until my book is published or at least upon final revision is complete. Sorry

[ttruscott]

...

WHY DO CHRISTIAN HIDE BEHIND DOGMA AND DOCTRINE AND NOT ACCEPT THE LITERALLY BILLIONS THAT HAVE BEEN KILLED FOR NOT BELIEVING IN CHRIST. ALWAYS SIDE STEP OR BLAME THE DEVIL.

...

imCo:
Your rant seems to rest upon a presumption that 1. The church should not have been engaged in evil and 2. evil within the church denies the existence of the Christian GOD.

If I may,

The Church is not said to be holy except in calling. It is full of Cain and the tares, all as evil as Satan. I too rejected GOD because the 'church' was evil... until I realized that was just an excuse to reject GOD because I loved sin more.

NO, Christians come to GOD in spite of, not because of, the church, no matter what the denomination.

Peace, Ted

[Excubis]

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]

First of all there is fundamental contradiction of the Devil and free will. How could Lucifer(Devil) have turned away from god when the only creation to have FREE WILL is man. This is the foundation why man can be evil but does not take into account the fall of Lucifer and the supposed influence over man. My studies have not shown one passage that attributes free will to anything other than man. So the devil could not have fallen because he/it did not have free will to do so. Also you are wrong bible clearly states the evils of the devil I mean hell exist so not sure you have any footing for your point. So you choose to accept some as literal but others are not. Tell me what christian denomination does not invoke jesus's name I mean the far majority of acts, romans, corinthians, say this time and again to invoke Jesus's name. So how powerful of god can it be that on one hand says to invoke his name for good, yet such immoral and yes evil deeds are done by invoking the same name. Oh that's man not god, so therefore what power is there that name. What is all the talk throughout the bible about original sin inherent in man put there by god for Adam's sin is, what another supreme being but according to the bible there is only one. If god created ALL then god created ALL. Also what is your definition of sin, the turning away from god or immoral acts or both. So why is it different non judeo religion are the most peaceful. Oh wait Satan can disguise himself as a angel yeah okay. Why is it that the judeo religions will not accept there own dogma is contradictory but try to pick apart the scientific method while still using the fruits of that method, ie EVERYTHING WE HAVE TODAY.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]

First of all there is fundamental contradiction of the Devil and free will. How could Lucifer(Devil) have turned away from god when the only creation to have FREE WILL is man. This is the foundation why man can be evil but does not take into account the fall of Lucifer and the supposed influence over man. My studies have not shown one passage that attributes free will to anything other than man. So the devil could not have fallen because he/it did not have free will to do so. Also you are wrong bible clearly states the evils of the devil I mean hell exist so not sure you have any footing for your point. So you choose to accept some as literal but others are not. Tell me what christian denomination does not invoke jesus's name I mean the far majority of acts, romans, corinthians, say this time and again to invoke Jesus's name. So how powerful of god can it be that on one hand says to invoke his name for good, yet such immoral and yes evil deeds are done by invoking the same name. Oh that's man not god, so therefore what power is there that name. What is all the talk throughout the bible about original sin inherent in man put there by god for Adam's sin is, what another supreme being but according to the bible there is only one. If god created ALL then god created ALL. Also what is your definition of sin, the turning away from god or immoral acts or both. So why is it different non judeo religion are the most peaceful. Oh wait Satan can disguise himself as a angel yeah okay. Why is it that the judeo religions will not accept there own dogma is contradictory but try to pick apart the scientific method while still using the fruits of that method, ie EVERYTHING WE HAVE TODAY.

On of the differences in the view of Ha-Satan from the Jewish faith and 'the devil' in Christianity is that in the Jewish faith, angels (of which Satan was one) have no free will. Satan's function was to provide bad choices, so that by rejecting those choices, and choosing GOOD, one could elevate themselves from a mundane life, and live a more sanctified life. Many of the more modern Jews view it as allegorical. That is in contrast with the Devil/Satan/Lucifer of Christianity, where the Devil Fell, and was in conflict with God, and was out to 'steal your soul'.

[Excubis]

[Replying to post 7 by Goat]

I was bringing the christian ideal of the devil not the Jewish idea. The Torah and subsequent books of the Jewish faith are very different than the christian view of the devil.

[Overcomer]

Excubis wrote:

WHY DO CHRISTIAN HIDE BEHIND DOGMA AND DOCTRINE AND NOT ACCEPT THE LITERALLY BILLIONS THAT HAVE BEEN KILLED FOR NOT BELIEVING IN CHRIST.

First of all, I think that saying Christians killed billions of people because those people didn't believe in Christ is an example of hyperbole.

Secondly, what "Christians" are you talking about? There are people who are in a relationship with God through the person of Jesus Christ by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Their spirits, once dead in sin, have been brought alive in Christ, making them born again. They honestly and sincerely try to live out the commandment of Christ to love their enemies.

There are also nominal Christians, that is, people who attend church, read the Bible, etc., but they are not in a relationship with Jesus and are not born-again. Hence, they are Christians in name only, not in fact.

And there are cultural Christians, that is, they live in a society based on Judaeo-Christian principles but have no relationship with the Lord and don't have anything to do with church, etc.

I think that you will find that the last two categories of "Christians" are the ones responsible for the killing of others because, as you say, those who are true followers of Jesus will do their best to avoid evil and fight it, not create it.

Lastly, I don't think it's a matter of Christians "hiding" information at all. I think it's a matter of Christians simply not knowing the history of the Christian church. I have a degree in history from a secular university and studied history to get my Master's in Theological Studies. I love the subject and that's why I know these things. But the average Christian doesn't study up on these matters at all. Even pastors aren't necessarily well-informed about Christian history.

Excubis wrote:

In all accounts written before christianity took a strong hold in Rome it was the christians who were the aggressors not the Romans.

I think you are wrong about the time-frame. It was AFTER Constantine, when Christianity became the state religion that so-called Christians began the persecution of non-Christians. Sadly, in that era, being a Christian became all about belonging to a group with a certain status and not about being a follower of Jesus at all. There were, of course, some who remained true to the Lord, but they were in the minority for awhile.

And bear in mind that governments used religion to keep people in check. They wanted everybody to belong to the same religion and believe the same things to prevent insurrection and revolution within their borders. In other words, God had nothing to do with their persecution of non-Christians.

For the first few centuries A.D., the Romans DID persecute Christians for being Christians. The persecution was not constant, however. There were waves of it. It all depended on who was in power. Here is a magazine devoted to the topic which hits the highlights:

https://www.christianhistoryinstitute.o ... ly-church/

Excubis wrote:

It should also be known the Romans actually practice freedom of religion so long as the religion did not suppress another.

That's not exactly true. The Romans tolerated all religions as long as their proponents worshipped Caesar as well and recognized him as the top god. Christians refused to worship Caesar or recognize him as a god. They would only worship the God of the Bible. This amounted to sedition and it was for this reason that Rome persecuted Christians. I recommend Justo Gonzalez's The Story of Christianity as a concise, but thorough account of Christian history which includes a number of chapters on the persecution of Christians.

Excubis wrote:

I left the faith scared I would perhaps fall into my old life but I did not, I did not need god to be a good and moral person that was a choice base solely on me.

I gather from what you wrote that you attended a Roman Catholic Church. I'm a Protestant and don't think much of the guilt trips that the RCC teaches as well as the many non-biblical ideas they profess.

However, let me explain why you can't be good apart from God. We are all born with sin natures. None of us can change our sin natures. It doesn't matter how many rules we follow or how much money we give to the poor or how kind we are to children. We remain sinners.

God cannot have sin in his presence. That means none of us can spend eternity with him -- unless we change our sin natures. But I already pointed out that we can't.

Enter Jesus. We would all die in our sins, but Christ took the punishment for them upon himself. Being both man AND God, he was sin-free. He gives us HIS righteousness when we acknowledge and confess our sins and commit our lives to him in faith. He opens the door to heaven for us. And he is the only one who can do it.

Conversion involves having our dead spirits brought alive by Christ. Christians enter into a life-long process of sanctification in which we are guided by the Holy Spirit as we clean up our acts one sin at a time. But we will not be completely free of sin until the next life.

But my point is this: It is the Holy Spirit who points out what sin is and then empowers us to overcome it. Individuals will have only limited success in trying to make themselves better people independent of God. Unfortunately, people think they're being good if they aren't stealing, killing, raping, etc. In other words, they compare themselves to the worst of society and, in doing so, consider themselves good. They aren't because of their sin natures. Nobody can earn a place in heaven. Therefore, Jesus came to atone for ourselves and make a place there free to all who accept it in faith.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]

First of all there is fundamental contradiction of the Devil and free will. How could Lucifer(Devil) have turned away from god when the only creation to have FREE WILL is man.

Consider that angels may always do as directed by a free will choice to do exactly that:

Angels have free will:

Angels worship GOD:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Robotic praise and worship is a parody of the real thing and worthless in heaven. When you put on a dvd and listen to a worship song singing praises to GOD, do you think or allude to the dvd as worshipping? Of course you don't.

Some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 - I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels. implying the fallen angels are demons and the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil. IF angels can choose to be holy and work for GOD, they can also choose to sin and become demons.

Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels. This verse contrasts the sinfulness of men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness of angels, not just their consecration to GOD. Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, Satan's fall is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot and hell would not be waiting for him and his angels, the goats...

Angels have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness, pride, and anger:
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires (1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44). Why would anyone create a robotic group with emotions to drive them when HIS will is all that is necessary to drive them? Robotic emotions??? Surely only people have emotions...

Angels are Persons in the image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God.
Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD and like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image.

When could they receive the image of God unless it was in creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any created being that fits this description fits the image of GOD...

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, they also imply they have free will and if you combine free will with election of some and the fall of others, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some choosing holiness and satan and his crew choosing that which made them demonically evil in HIS sight.

Emotions are further proof of their personhood in the image of GOD.

My studies have not shown one passage that attributes free will to anything other than man.

Now you have more...

...and I have no idea what your final rant in this post is about - too much innuendo and not enough specifics I think.

Peace, Ted