A question for christians

[thenormalyears]

You believe in a God that is all knowing, he knows the past, present and the future, correct?

[achilles12604]

You misrepresented what I said.
I said Paul did not know Jesus in the flesh and I even gave you his words. You twisted it into something I didn't even recognize.

Ah then we agree on this point at least. How about the chicken or the egg?

[Easyrider]

Goat: It seems to me that the view of Paul was that Jesus became the Son of God at the cruxifiction.

Easyrider: Hardly. From Philippians chapter 2: 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant..

Goat: And now does that 'refute' what I said? It seems to me that it reinforces the concept that he was exulted at death.

Easyrider: No, let’s review again what you claimed (see above): You wrote: "It seems to me that the view of Paul was that Jesus became the Son of God at the cruxifiction." Your claim was specifically that he BECAME the Son of God at the crucifixion. The Scripture above clearly shows he was God BEFORE he was ever crucified.

Now again, are you going to revise your theology or continue ignoring it?

[Goat]

Goat: It seems to me that the view of Paul was that Jesus became the Son of God at the cruxifiction.

Easyrider: Hardly. From Philippians chapter 2: 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant..

Goat: And now does that 'refute' what I said? It seems to me that it reinforces the concept that he was exulted at death.

Easyrider: No, let’s review again what you claimed (see above): You wrote: "It seems to me that the view of Paul was that Jesus became the Son of God at the cruxifiction." Your claim was specifically that he BECAME the Son of God at the crucifixion. The Scripture above clearly shows he was God BEFORE he was ever crucified.

Now again, are you going to revise your theology or continue ignoring it?

Well, the later gospels say that. However, we are discussing Paul. The scripture you quoted clearly supports the fact that Paul considered him exulted after his death.

[Cathar1950]

Your claim was specifically that he BECAME the Son of God at the crucifixion. The Scripture above clearly shows he was God BEFORE he was ever crucified.

Some of the writings say he was God before his birth.
Mark seems to think it is at his resurrection. Matthew at his baptism. Luke at his birth John before the world. Take your pick. Personally I don't think he was God or do I think the first disciple thought he was God. Messiah and son of God like David, the priests, the prophets and even Jews sure.
The people that wrote the Dead Sea scrolls seem to speak of a pre-existent redeemer figure as did the writers of Enoch. There were many va concepts of the Messiah then there are book in the NT. There were some that thought others were the Messiah. Some had given up the king for God being the king and a priest being the Messiah. After the war it seems the nationalistic kingdom fell into disrepute among the Jewish followers.
All the gospels are reactions to the new situation with a reinterpretation. I think the Ebonites are closer.

goat:

Well, the later gospels say that. However, we are discussing Paul. The scripture you quoted clearly supports the fact that Paul considered him exulted after his death.

He also said the demonic powers killed him not Romans.
Also they didn't recognize him or they would not have killed him.
Paul is not all that coherent.

[Easyrider]

Cathar: Some of the writings say he was God before his birth.
Mark seems to think it is at his resurrection.

<sigh>

Here's another one....

Mark 6: After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray. When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 4 but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I (Greek ego eimi - literally "I AM" - "It is I AM"). Don't be afraid."

[Goat]

Cathar: Some of the writings say he was God before his birth.
Mark seems to think it is at his resurrection.

<sigh>

Here's another one....

Mark 6: After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray. When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 4 but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I (Greek ego eimi - literally "I AM" - "It is I AM"). Don't be afraid."

Which of course, has nothing to do with the statement that Cathar had that Paul appears to think he became god as the resurrection. You keep on reinforcing Cathar's claims though.

[Cathar1950]

So the great “I am” YHWH, which many think should have been translated “I will be”, is Jesus. Your proof is a passage in Mark where Jesus greets his scared disciples with the name of God in Greek.
I bet you got that from some Christian think tank.

When he says "no one is good but God" do you think he was just fooling around? For some reason you think something is in the bible it is true and of God no matter when or who wrote it.

[Cathar1950]

achilles12604

I'm going to take a guess that you are using the KJV of the bible like most other atheists?

In that case you should be aware that the KJV has been interpreted incorrectly in quite a number of places. A more accurate and up to date version is the NIV bible.

Here is some one that think just like you but you are bent on not using God’s bible the KJV.
http://www.zianet.com/titanic/OPTION%2042.htm

42.......Following Paul

We should be followers of Paul for it is written by Paul "...be ye followers of me." ( I Cor. 4:16). But what exactly does this statement entail? When Peter asked about John (John 21), Jesus said not to worry about John, but "follow thou me". Paul states in Thessalonians (IIThess. 3:7,9) that we should follow him because of his example of orderly conduct and not to follow disorderly would-be leaders ( the same is given in Phil.3:17). In the book of Revelation we are seen as followers of the Lamb. And in Ephesians as followers of God. Again, following is presented in I Thessalonians as "having become followers of us, and of the Lord"(I Thess. 1:6).
Now Paul is our apostle (the apostle of the gentiles) (Romans 1:1 and 11:13) and he has the rule over us (Heb. 13:7) and we must hold fast to the doctrines of grace (Heb. 13:9). This is true no matter how much trouble the apostle Peter has in understanding Paul and the doctrines of grace (II Peter 3:16)( Acts 13:43)! Furthermore, christians will depart from Paul in areas such as a womans proper place and activity at much peril. Today we hear from brother 'Steadfast' and his great Bible knowledge and he says that Paul did not understand thus and so and therefore we will allow women to preach etc.,etc. Beware of those who would replace Paul and yes...Martin Luther as our proper leaders. The same would-be leaders would replace the KJV. Follow Paul !!!!!!

Give a passage and you get 20 different Christian responses all biblical.

[Easyrider]

Cathar: Some of the writings say he was God before his birth.
Mark seems to think it is at his resurrection.

<sigh>

Here's another one....

Mark 6: After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray. When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 4 but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I (Greek ego eimi - literally "I AM" - "It is I AM"). Don't be afraid."

Which of course, has nothing to do with the statement that Cathar had that Paul appears to think he became god as the resurrection. You keep on reinforcing Cathar's claims though.

<flush>

Both views now stand corrected. Jesus was God before the resurrection in both Mark and Philippians, as I've demonstrated.

What's become clear is that you will remain in denial no matter what's presented to you.

[Goat]

Cathar: Some of the writings say he was God before his birth.
Mark seems to think it is at his resurrection.

<sigh>

Here's another one....

Mark 6: After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray. When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 4 but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I (Greek ego eimi - literally "I AM" - "It is I AM"). Don't be afraid."

Which of course, has nothing to do with the statement that Cathar had that Paul appears to think he became god as the resurrection. You keep on reinforcing Cathar's claims though.

<flush>

Both views now stand corrected. Jesus was God before the resurrection in both Mark and Philippians, as I've demonstrated.

What's become clear is that you will remain in denial no matter what's presented to you.

You don't seem to realise what you have demonstrated. You have demosntrated that although later on, the gospels say that Jesus was God before the resurrection, there was an evolution of attitude between paul, continuing in mark, and then ending up in Matthew and Luke. The passages you have quotes show that very distinctly.