Signs on demand

[Justin108]

"Judges 6:36 Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand as you have promised— 37 look, I will place a wool fleece on the threshing floor. If there is dew only on the fleece and all the ground is dry, then I will know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you said.� 38 And that is what happened. Gideon rose early the next day; he squeezed the fleece and wrung out the dew—a bowlful of water.

39 Then Gideon said to God, “Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece, but this time make the fleece dry and let the ground be covered with dew.� 40 That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew."




"John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!�But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.�

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!� 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.�"




Why does God not answer modern requests for signs?

[tortured soul]

[Replying to Justin108]

So, the issue is not so much "modern day signs from God" but the issue of prayer itself. Well, prayer would be the source of the sign, so I guess the issue of prayer would need to be addressed. I understand the concept of, Yes, Wait, and No. Being a cognitive entity, I understand that the mind must mature, and that prayer, in its simplest form, is childlike until reaching a state of maturity. We learn, as human beings, and we grow- this is what we do, both in the material and the spiritual aspect.

Approaching God, in my growing relationship with the eternal, I have learned that God does not possess, but IS perfect reasoning, understanding, reflection, awareness, discernment, intelligence, and idea- a perfect cognitive entity which humanity (and all of creation) are contained WITHIN. God IS Mind Itself, and we are created within God, created by His Word (Intelligence), and in His cognitive likeness (this is why God is the Invisible God, for how can one see a thought, or idea, or reflection?). When praying to God, I am contacting Him on a cognitive level. I understand that God possesses absolute foreknowledge, yet He is not limited by foreknowledge, which means God abides in an ETERNAL PRESENT, and dwells within ETERNITY ITESELF; and not being limited by His foreknowledge, He responds with an ETERNALLY PRESENT FREE WILL, which means that God can ultimately change the destiny of anyone, and interact with people in real time.

As a Christian, I understand that when I pray to God, His foreknowledge knows exactly what I am going to pray before I pray it, but it is still up to God, according to His eternally present free will, to answer that prayer. So I am cognitively reaching out to a God that I know can make any decision that He wants to make, not dictated by my prayer, but according to His divine will at that present moment of prayer, and I am content with any result, whether it is Yes, Wait, or No. In my simplicity of prayer, this question still remains, It does not hurt to ask, right?

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 31 by tortured soul]

My prayer video was merely a response to your excuses for how God responded to your prayers. The issue is still why God does not provide proof of his existence through signs on demand as he has on the past. The excuse you seem to be using is that "God knows better". But in my case, God clearly does not know better. I have asked him for proof of his existence and he has provided none. I have asked for clearly specified signs that would guarantee my belief. God did not provide the proof I seek. It is not a matter of "God knowing better" because then God would have provided even better proof for his existence, which he did not.

God IS Mind Itself, and we are created within God, created by His Word (Intelligence), and in His cognitive likeness (this is why God is the Invisible God, for how can one see a thought, or idea, or reflection?)

One moment God is love, then God is mind, then God is truth, then God is justice. I'm losing track here. Anyway, God has appeared in corporeal form to Jacob when he had a wrestling match with him in the desert. God appeared to Moses, showing him his backside because apparently seeing God's face would kill you. In Genesis, Adam and Eve heard God's footsteps in the garden of Eden. So no... God is not just an invisible idea. God, according to the Bible, has corporeal form.

[tortured soul]

[Replying to Justin108]

Well, Justin, to you I have excuses (though you do not know my frame of mind), but you are entitled to use whatever terms you feel necessary to justify your own cognitive limitations. Does my personal reasoning tell me that God, in fact, does know better than me? Yes. Your personal journey toward the unknown has led you into the personal position you have found yourself, now you are certain of the personal facts which you have obtained on that journey, and in our specific cases, though both of our journeys are similar (seeking to understand the unseen) we have arrived at opposing results. I am not saying that my way was the right way and you did something wrong in your pursuit, but that we arrived at different results. In my journey, I searched for truth, literally leaving everything I owned, strapped on a backpack, and went on a cross country journey for years. This way may not work for everyone, but it did work for me. I continue, even now, after fifteen years, seeking to understand the God of Christianity, but I have experienced this God on many levels, and could in no way deny this God after so many personal experiences.

The difference between humans and God is that humans have, whereas God IS. Yes, God IS. If you are not familiar with the Bible, the only physical form God has ever, and will ever, take upon Himself is that of Jesus (Colossians 1)- he is the first born of all creation (this is why Jesus is titled the ONLY begotten of God). It was Jesus who walked in the garden, gave the law to the Israelites, was in the furnace in the book of Daniel, wrestled with Jacob, appeared to Judges, appeared to Abraham, and showed his back to Moses (this is grace opposing the law). What this means is that Jesus is the central part of everything, for Jesus is the Word of God, or God's Intelligence, how everything was created, and is the physical manifestation of God's personality and authority, within Himself.

[Goat]

[Replying to Justin108]

Well, Justin, to you I have excuses (though you do not know my frame of mind), but you are entitled to use whatever terms you feel necessary to justify your own cognitive limitations. Does my personal reasoning tell me that God, in fact, does know better than me? Yes. Your personal journey toward the unknown has led you into the personal position you have found yourself, now you are certain of the personal facts which you have obtained on that journey, and in our specific cases, though both of our journeys are similar (seeking to understand the unseen) we have arrived at opposing results. I am not saying that my way was the right way and you did something wrong in your pursuit, but that we arrived at different results. In my journey, I searched for truth, literally leaving everything I owned, strapped on a backpack, and went on a cross country journey for years. This way may not work for everyone, but it did work for me. I continue, even now, after fifteen years, seeking to understand the God of Christianity, but I have experienced this God on many levels, and could in no way deny this God after so many personal experiences.

The difference between humans and God is that humans have, whereas God IS. Yes, God IS. If you are not familiar with the Bible, the only physical form God has ever, and will ever, take upon Himself is that of Jesus (Colossians 1)- he is the first born of all creation (this is why Jesus is titled the ONLY begotten of God). It was Jesus who walked in the garden, gave the law to the Israelites, was in the furnace in the book of Daniel, wrestled with Jacob, appeared to Judges, appeared to Abraham, and showed his back to Moses (this is grace opposing the law). What this means is that Jesus is the central part of everything, for Jesus is the Word of God, or God's Intelligence, how everything was created, and is the physical manifestation of God's personality and authority, within Himself.

Well, that is an interesting claim, that 'God is'. The bible is evidence that some people believed in God, but that does not mean their belief is justified, or that the bible is accurate.

I know for one thing.. when you read the Jewish scriptures, the name 'JESUS' is not written in the book of Genesis.

[tortured soul]

[Replying to post 34 by Goat]

You are correct, the specific name of Jesus was not mentioned in Genesis, only the angel, or Shiloh, or the plural "us" when God reasoned about the creation of man- yet Jesus claimed, in the book of John, to be associated with "I am who I am" which is a very big claim within Jewish doctrine, for to associate with that name is to be an eternal part of the identity of God. Jesus is "the intelligence of God" having always been an eternal quality within the Mind of God- and it is the intelligence of God that has created all things, therefore Jesus, from the beginning (as the intelligence of the Most High God) personally created all things (WITHIN God), for Jesus is the Word of God before he is Jesus, the Son of God. As Jesus took the form of a servant (human being), he also took the form of an angel, so that he is the authority over everything contained WITHIN God, that every knee should bow, both in heaven and on the earth.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 34 by Goat]

You are correct, the specific name of Jesus was not mentioned in Genesis, only the angel, or Shiloh, or the plural "us" when God reasoned about the creation of man- yet Jesus claimed, in the book of John, to be associated with "I am who I am" which is a very big claim within Jewish doctrine, for to associate with that name is to be an eternal part of the identity of God. Jesus is "the intelligence of God" having always been an eternal quality within the Mind of God- and it is the intelligence of God that has created all things, therefore Jesus, from the beginning (as the intelligence of the Most High God) personally created all things (WITHIN God), for Jesus is the Word of God before he is Jesus, the Son of God. As Jesus took the form of a servant (human being), he also took the form of an angel, so that he is the authority over everything contained WITHIN God, that every knee should bow, both in heaven and on the earth.

Well, there are two ways 'us' are used. One, when God is talking to the heavenly host.. not Jesus, and then there is the use of the magestic 'we', where the form of the noun is plural, but the verb afterwards is singular. None of that is talking about Jesus. Just go to your local non-messianic Jewish synagouge, and the Rabbi will explain that to you.

[tortured soul]

[Replying to post 36 by Goat]

That was the context in which I meant, "Let US MAKE man in our image. . ." The form of the noun is plural and the verb singular- this has always intrigued me, and has been used by Christian theologians to prove the doctrine of the trinity. When I say that Jesus was mentioned, it is in the context that John described him in the first chapter of John, "In the beginning was the WORD. . ." Jesus as the Word means that before he was Jesus, or the son of God, Jesus was the spoken intelligence of God. So when God cognitively formed the words, let there be light, it would have been the intelligence of God (spoken Word\Jesus) that formed the material aspect WITHIN God. This is similar to the way the human mind works, when an idea arrives within the mind, it is the intelligence that creates it- this is how we are created WITHIN God, and created in God's cognitive likeness. Now, Jesus as the Word was present as an active quality within the Mind of God, and was included in the term "us" used in the above passage, but the singular verb "make" is specifically toward the Word, or intelligence of God.

Jesus, as the son of God, is the only physical form God will ever take upon himself (within Himself), and Jesus represents the authority and personality of God, WITHIN God, and has arrived as the source to judge God's opposing knowledge of evil and to free anyone who may be in bondage to that expression of evil.

I have often wanted to visit a non-messianic synagogue to speak to a Rabbi- I might just do that soon.

[Zzyzx]

.

Jesus, as the son of God, is the only physical form God will ever take upon himself (within Himself) . . .

Doesn't that directly contradict Genesis 32:?

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok.
23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.�
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.�[
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?�
“Jacob,� he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.�
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.�
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?� Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.�
31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,[c] and he was limping because of his hip.
32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.

Bold added

[OnceConvinced]

I remember that the sign given to Thomas, that of the nail holes in the hands of Christ, was given...and he was chided for asking. There is a reason he is called "doubting Thomas,' and the reaction of Jesus was this:
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

To me now this story of Thomas really opens up a can of worms. If Jesus really was all the bible claimed him to be there is no way Thomas would have needed this sign. Instead of saying "Is that really you? I don't believe it. Show me a sign", he would have said something like "Finally, you're back. What do we do next?" It really is damning evidence that Jesus was not the son of God and he didn't do the things the scriptures said he did. It seems most likely this man who came to the disciples was not really Jesus at all.

I have often said (and have illustrated in this forum, actually) that those who have made up their minds that God does not exist, or that religion id utterly false, would not believe if God Himself appeared before them.

To me this shows a severe lack of faith in your God. Is your God really that impotent?

If God was real then he should easily be able to convince skeptics that he exists. If he can't do that then he's not much of a God. You would think he would know each of us so well that he would easily have a way to convince us and you'd think that if he loved us as much as he claimed, he would.

The excuses I am given for their disbelief are legion...and some quite funny, actually, but they all revolve around the 'I can't trust my senses if something like that happened and indicated that my own opinions are false." theory of evidence.

Those seem like bizarre excuses alright, but I'm sure that God would see right through those excuses and would know exactly what he'd have to do to convince them, wouldn't you?

And doesn't it say in the scripture that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess? Are you saying that not every knee shall bow and not every tongue shall confess because they simply just won't believe anyway?

So...I think that there are signs all over the place, but ultimately they end up being signs of confirmation of belief, not evidence for change of belief. If you are convinced that there is no god, and even His appearance in front of you declaring His existence will convince you otherwise, then why bother with signs?

So much for every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess right? I guess that's a bible lie! What will happen at Judgment Day? will they still insist God is not real?

How many Atheists are truly convinced there is no God anyway? I for one consider myself Atheist, but would quite happily accept proof of God's existence. In fact I would invite this so-called God to do just that... if he really exists that is.

The real problem would be to prove that God... if he exists, is the God spoken of in the bible. You might have a problem there, because even if it were shown that God was real, people might just not want to worship him on principle. But then again... every knee shall bow, every tongue will confess...

You are really arguing against God's word here, D, aren't you?

[tortured soul]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

This was an angelic form of Jesus, for Jesus (as the intelligence of God) created EVERYTHING within God, including Satan and all angels (so this was not the physical, only the form of an angel), for Jesus is the established authority within God, both the angelic and the material body, for according to scripture, every knee shall bow, both in heaven and on the earth, this would include the angelic as well, which form was also revealed to Abraham in Genesis concerning Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, and also appeared in the fiery furnace in the book of Daniel. But Jesus, as the son of God, having come forth from the soul of God as an eternal quality, CONTAINED himself in a physical body, yet was not contained in the form of an angel, for angels remain spiritual.