Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Justin108
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Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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Post by Justin108 »

Little Lucy was told by her mother to make her bed. Lucy didn't listen to her mother and decided to go play outside instead. Lucy committed a sin

Timmy wanted to have a cookie but his mother said no. Timmy sneaked into the kitchen and grabbed one out of the cookie jar. Timmy committed a sin

Billy's friend Jimmy brought his new Megaman action figure to school. Billy's family is poor and can't afford to buy Billy any toys. Billy covets Jimmy's new toy. Billy committed a sin


Do these three deeds deserve death?

Justin108
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Post #21

Post by Justin108 »

ttruscott wrote:
I clearly have said that I and Christians in general do not make a distinction between the most vile and most disgusting sins over other "lesser" sins. I'll emphasize it for you: ALL SINS ARE OF EQUAL AND ULTIMATE DISVALUE BEFORE GOD. Your perseverating on this point is meaningless to my theology. The straw horse that some sins are of more disvalue is dead dead dead and will never drink of living water again.
I notice you haven't answered my question on the topic of the equality of sin. I'll post it again; if a child was caught lying to his parents about doing her homework, would you be ok with her being sentenced to death by the court?
ttruscott wrote: As I have said, I contend that it is not the vileness of the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that makes it unforgivable but the fact that such a blasphemy can only occur if the person also rejects any and all help from YHWH to redeem them from sin so that once they choose by their free will to so blaspheme, they are eternally evil and will face the consequences of eternal banishment.
This doesn't necessarily follow. What if one initially rejects the Holy Spirit, blasphemes, but later repents? According to Mark 3:19, too bad. It can't be forgiven. It's funny how insulting God is so much worse than raping and murdering children.

ttruscott wrote: Which of my beliefs are not supported by scripture? Your claim is a personal blanket statement without any evidence let alone proof so it is against the rules.

Name a belief I hold that you wish to see the support in scripture but do not ask me to write a book on over 40 years of study because I will not comply. Your claim is specious like demanding a full discourse on quantum wave mechanics to justify a round earth, plausible on the surface but useful only to force a denial as unworkable so you can suggest my non-compliance means I have no support.

This is not debate, this is sophistry. And personal.
What you need to support is your claim that we all decided to either follow or reject God prior to our existence on earth. If I remember correctly, you believe we all existed prior to our life on earth. God, appearing as nothing more than a man, then came to us and offered us eternal life without any proof. Some of us then chose to believe him and were saved while the rest of us chose to deny him and were sent to earth to be cleansed. I might have some of this wrong... I remember this from a discussion we had years ago so the details may be a bit fuzzy so fill in the bits I have wrong, then support it.

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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Post #22

Post by lefillegal »

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Yes, indeed they do. The wages of sin are death. So yes those deeds deserve death. But dont stop there. Romans is a book in the new testament. A proclamation of a new gospel. A gospel that teaches even though we all deserve death, we can be spared with the atonement provided in jesus christ. Jesus taught let those without sin cast the first stone, so although we recognise these deeds deserve death, we will not cast the stone that causes it. There is no moral dilemna for the Christian when asked this question because all vengence belongs to god, not man.

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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Post #23

Post by Hamsaka »

lefillegal wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Yes, indeed they do. The wages of sin are death. So yes those deeds deserve death. But dont stop there. Romans is a book in the new testament. A proclamation of a new gospel. A gospel that teaches even though we all deserve death, we can be spared with the atonement provided in jesus christ. Jesus taught let those without sin cast the first stone, so although we recognise these deeds deserve death, we will not cast the stone that causes it. There is no moral dilemna for the Christian when asked this question because all vengence belongs to god, not man.
Welcome Lefillegal!

To my non-Theist ears, what you just wrote above is a collection of sound bytes typically heard together in that typical order.

They may feel to YOU like they have the solidity of a claim, as if they have actual explanatory power. On this forum, if you hang around long enough, you'll learn quick that deeply believed opinion and 'claim' are not similar (or even in the same universe?).

For me, the whole thing starts with WHO said such things deserve death, and just WHO this so-called authority is, and what in the world is the purpose of such a draconian, punishing and cynical belief that is purportedly coming from a loving God.

A loving God who set the conditions such that they are, and then punishes or rewards his minions as if they were serfs working his landed estates. What a total pile of hogwash!

I had a Presbyterian (I think) friend who really stepped up to help me (and, convert me) when I was in a very bad place. I was completely open to it. Anyway, I asked her something like that last paragraph but in a much more respectfully worded way. Like I said, I was participating in this conversion as best I could.

She said "It doesn't matter what you think about what God does. This is just the way it is. This is God, this is life, get used to it. What we opine about it means nothing."

This struck me hard. For the first time, I got a glimpse of what it is like to be a Theist. And then I knew (well, we both knew) that I wasn't even close to able to accept this. Either that phone call or the next one is where she started speaking to me in this odd, pressured voice, kind of like a preacher, which in retrospect was probably meant to bring me to my knees with the power of her words. My reply, whatever it was, assured her that I did not 'hear' God speaking through her, and since she was a bit of a Calvinist, she stopped calling me and I never heard from her again.

So YOU believe (presuppose) the a priori existence of a God that set up such a system that we humans are so pathetically sinful and unworthy we are condemned even as little children (or with original sin, from birth). With this presupposition in mind, it's making perfect sense to you. God's existence and intention are as obvious as it was to my Presbyterian friend.

But if God's existence from the git-go is not apparent whatsoever, 'the wages of sin is death' and being born in a condemned state sounds like superstitious and potentially harmful nonsense. It sounds so awful I want to rescue people who think like this from themselves.

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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Post #24

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 21 by Hamsaka]

You might serve yourself by comparing what Christians believe to what you believe now to be true.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

Justin108
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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Post #25

Post by Justin108 »

lefillegal wrote:
Yes, indeed they do. The wages of sin are death. So yes those deeds deserve death. But dont stop there. Romans is a book in the new testament. A proclamation of a new gospel. A gospel that teaches even though we all deserve death, we can be spared with the atonement provided in jesus christ. Jesus taught let those without sin cast the first stone, so although we recognise these deeds deserve death, we will not cast the stone that causes it. There is no moral dilemna for the Christian when asked this question because all vengence belongs to god, not man.
What I want to stress here is your belief that these deeds do indeed deserve death. I understand your latter mentioned belief that we are saved by God's mercy and that we have no right to cast the first stone, but, again, the stress-point here is that we deserve death for the deeds mentioned in the post above.

Suppose for a moment that God tasked you to kill these three children. Would you?

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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Post #26

Post by Goose »

Justin108 wrote:What I want to stress here is your belief that these deeds do indeed deserve death.
You seem to be arguing in this thread the correct interpretation of Paul's words to the Romans (in 6:23) is that he meant sin is to be punished by death. If that is in fact what you are arguing what makes you think this?

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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Post #27

Post by Hamsaka »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Hamsaka]

You might serve yourself by comparing what Christians believe to what you believe now to be true.
Not sure what you mean by this? Elaborate a bit more, I want to make sure I respond to what you are thinking of.

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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

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1213 wrote: I don’t think those are necessarily sins, because I have understood sin actually means that person rejects God. It is possible that those people did not reject God.
So, is sin not about morality but accepting that some god is real?
1213 wrote:If I would be judge, I would forgive those actions and tell them that it is not right. If they would continue to do wrong things and prove that they are not righteous, then they would not get the eternal life, if we believe this:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
So, the kid who keeps stealing cookies deserves eternal punishment for that?

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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Post #29

Post by Hamsaka »

Goose wrote:
Justin108 wrote:What I want to stress here is your belief that these deeds do indeed deserve death.
You seem to be arguing in this thread the correct interpretation of Paul's words to the Romans (in 6:23) is that he meant sin is to be punished by death. If that is in fact what you are arguing what makes you think this?
What I perceive Justin to be asking is a deeper question than an interpretation of Paul's words, which to me anyway seem pretty straightforward.

In your belief system, your God created this universe. He set it up with some pretty severe conditions, ie, even simple disobedience to him results in your death.

I can think of some less draconian and vicious options, but anyway . . .

I realize your God is THE (only true) God in your beliefs, but I doubt you'll be struck by lightning to explore what is up with such harsh conditions, and what this says about the nature of your God.

We wouldn't commit our own children to such conditions, and maybe the excuse for that is that we aren't Gods, or that God's reasoning is just implacable and so far beyond our capacity TO understand that when God seems evil to us, it is only our pathetic lack of understanding of God's will.

Or maybe God really is a complete bastard and thankfully abandoned us for the most part 2000 years ago, after 5000 years of walking and talking with us.

Or maybe our deeply superstitious human natures created your God (and all the others) out of whole cloth and the whole thing is the sadistic imagination of leaders trying to control their followers. All of the above have equal evidence to support them, perhaps a lot more logic in the last one, but still.

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Re: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

Post #30

Post by Goose »

Hamsaka wrote: In your belief system, your God created this universe. He set it up with some pretty severe conditions, ie, even simple disobedience to him results in your death.
Are you talking about physical death as a punishment? Or are you talking more along the lines of spiritual death as in the sense of separation from God?

The author of this thread seems to be arguing that, under the Christian paradigm, a child deserves to be punished by death on the grounds they sinned all because Paul wrote the words, "...the wages of sin are death..."

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