Meaning of "the Son of man coming in his kingdom"

[sf]

Taken from another thread to keep from derailing it further.

Matthew16:28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

In my opinion you make conclusions and claims that are not well supported by the Bible

If someone said "some who are standing here will not taste death before they see [something happen]", would any rational person take that to mean whatever it was might happen thousands of years from now?

Would a rational person reading those words thousands of years later and observing that it had NOT happened, be inclined to say "Just wait a little longer"?

This is why alternative referents for the ‘some of you who are standing here will not taste death’ and ‘this generation will certainly not pass away’ passages are sought by believers. It does not matter whether a historic Jesus said these things. A clear, explicit and highly important prophesy was presented and failed to happen.

We often focus in this forum on the first part of this statement by Jesus ("Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death..."), but I don't recall seeing much discussion on the meaning of the second part ("... till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.") What exactly does the second part mean? The transfiguration? Jesus' second coming? The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? Something else?

[otseng]

Try Strong's Concordance sometime. You might find it interesting.

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[sf]

Here is another for the expanded references noted in the first link:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons ... ashiy.html

No "dweller clayey soil" reference.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/? ... y+soil&rc=

Shows up just FINE in the link in my post when I click it.

Same with here:

http://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs/ ... ashiy.html

I'm not sure what this all has to do with the original question ("Meaning of "the Son of man coming in his kingdom"), but keep in mind that Strong's is chiefly a reference system by which each Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic word in the King James Version translation is given a number and this number is used in numerous reference works. There is a Strong's Concordance and many variations which give definitions. It may be better to give the name of the concordance being used instead of just saying Strong's, for example:

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1622.htm uses "Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database."

http://www.linkedword.com/matt/8/-8/0 uses "TDNT - Theological Dictionary of the New Testament"

[squint]

Here is another for the expanded references noted in the first link:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons ... ashiy.html

No "dweller clayey soil" reference.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/? ... y+soil&rc=

Shows up just FINE in the link in my post when I click it.

Same with here:

http://www.messie2vie.fr/bible/strongs/ ... ashiy.html

I'm not sure what this all has to do with the original question ("Meaning of "the Son of man coming in his kingdom"), but keep in mind that Strong's is chiefly a reference system by which each Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic word in the King James Version translation is given a number and this number is used in numerous reference works. There is a Strong's Concordance and many variations which give definitions. It may be better to give the name of the concordance being used instead of just saying Strong's, for example:

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1622.htm uses "Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database."

http://www.linkedword.com/matt/8/-8/0 uses "TDNT - Theological Dictionary of the New Testament"

The gist of the presentation showed an example of God in Christ coming into His Kingdom via the elimination of confusion within the man.

The first order or state of the man in what may be termed for easier understanding purposes of the 'closed set' analysis (the scripture sets) that there were contained within the man in scriptural terms "two men" as detailed by Matthew. The "man" himself and the foreign agents, Legion. Lucifer for example was also termed as "a man." Scripture defines this internal condition in many ways. The elemental nature. The serpent nature. The lesser nature. The sin nature, etc etc.

The second condition the "man" singular, outlined by Luke shows the man, 1, singular or as the Gospel writer observed, "in his right mind" or "reward at the end" upon elimination of the "internal adversary(s) of his mind/heart."

And of course the information is conveyed allegorically beneath the surface explanations in terms of "land areas," Gergesene/Gadarene. Man in the scriptural sets is noted or likened allegorically in many ways and some of those ways are as or likened to "dust" or to "clay and in some notations even ashes."

[Listener]

We often focus in this forum on the first part of this statement by Jesus ("Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death..."), but I don't recall seeing much discussion on the meaning of the second part ("... till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.") What exactly does the second part mean? The transfiguration? Jesus' second coming? The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? Something else?

Actually I did address that to some extent in the Twelve Apostles thread. I will attempt to expand on it here.

According to the context of the ‘not taste death’ passages, Jesus is clearly talking about the future appearance of the Son of Man and the judgment at the end of days. The transfiguration passages make no mention of angels or judgment or to the kingdom of God coming with power. The transfiguration idea also leads to the oddity that Jesus says in a rather dramatic style that some of the disciples will not die in the next few days. However if it is viewed as a prediction of the end of days happening in the not too distant future it makes sense.

Mark 8-9
8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.�
9:1 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

Luke 9
26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.�

The ‘not taste death’ passages tie closely into the Olivet Discourse passages. In these Jesus refers to the Son of Man coming and the arrival of the kingdom of God and the judgment happening while the current generation is still alive. That is, some of the hearers of Jesus would not yet have tasted death.

Mark 13

24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. 28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


Matthew 24

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


Luke 21

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.�

29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

The question remains of when ‘those days’ will be. As the Olivet Discourse passages indicate it will be not long after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Mark 13

As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!�
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?� replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.�

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?�

5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “You must be on your guard. you will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

This leads into the ‘distress of those days’ passages I quoted above. Matthew 13 has a nearly identical passage which I will omit in the interest of space.

Some noteworthy points:

The prophecy begins with a reference to the Temple and the destruction of Jerusalem.

Jesus refers to the disciples (‘you’) as witnesses to the events.

The ‘abomination that causes desolation’ and the author talking directly to the reader about it (“let the reader understand�).

This last point is very interesting. The ‘abomination’ is a reference to the prophecies of Daniel as are the Son of Man coming in the clouds references in my quotes above. The author clearly assumes the reader will get the reference to something that has already happened. One possibility is the attempt by Caligula to have his statue placed in the Temple in 40 CE, resulting in mass protests in Jerusalem. This was one of the factors that led to a serious deterioration in Jewish relations with Rome ultimately ending in the Revolt and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 CE.

Luke’s corresponding passage is similar to Mark’s and Matthew’s. One of the differences is that Luke makes no mention of the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ substituting instead “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.� (Lk 21:20) Luke was writing for non-Jews. His readers would NOT have understood. But they all knew about the siege of Jerusalem.


The ‘coming of the Son of Man in his kingdom’ and similar phrasings in the ‘not taste death’ passages do not refer to the transfiguration. They refer to the end of days, which is expected to happen not long after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

Very interesting read.

Is it possible that when Jesus said

Matthew 16: 27 “For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 16: 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

He was referring to Daniel 7:

Daniel 7: 13-14 13 “I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.�

And that Jesus was telling his listeners they would see the prophecy in Daniel 7 fulfilled? That is, they would see Jesus receive the kingdom from his Father before they died?