Where does the bible say you gays can't marry

[DanieltheDragon]

The title says it all folks. Where does the bible say 1.) gays can't marry 2.)you can't particpate in gay weddings 3.) you can't preside over a gay marriage(as a magistrate of the court) 4.) you can't support gay marriage.


Instead I find the bible specifically states none of the above. Instead it simplifies things.

"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13

If one is not arguing that LGBT individuals should be put to death they cannot complain about any of the above. After all Romans 13 states the following

13 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

The bible specifically states to subject yourselves to governing authorities. If the law of the land is that if you offer sales to the public and are not to discriminate then you cannot discriminate. If the law of the land is that as a public magistrate you are to preside over LGBT weddings then you must preside over LGBT weddings.

The only argument based off of the biblical literature in regards to LGBT individuals is whether or not to kill them. Marriage has nothing to do with it.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

even a human and a nonhuman

Ohio currently has no laws against zoophilia, yet bans gay marriage. Seems a bit backward would you not agree?

Regardless of strange instances in states that specifically ban gay marriage yet do nothing for zoophilia, is the fact that it has nothing to do with gay marriage at all.

There is no consent between an animal and a human, marriage sort of requires consent. Zoophilia is a form of rape and in instances can be considered coerced rape. Consent cannot be given which is sort of an issue. Aside from the whole different species stuff which is a whole other bag of weird I am going to stay away from.

[OpenYourEyes]

The title says it all folks. Where does the bible say 1.) gays can't marry 2.)you can't particpate in gay weddings 3.) you can't preside over a gay marriage(as a magistrate of the court) 4.) you can't support gay marriage.

Instead of just going by the biblical text, you should also go by Jewish culture of the times the authors wrote. It is very clear from non-biblical Jewish writers, like Josephus and Philo, that man being with women was by DESIGN hence Eve being made for Adam, the sexual anatomy, reproduction, etc.. Anything else was seen as being against nature.

So in conclusion, gay sex and marriage are sins.

Here are some straightforward answers to your questions:

1. No gays cant marry.
2. No you cant participate in sin.
3. You can preside over a 'legal' marriage since that doesnt involve you having to agree with it or like it.
4. You can not support sin.

[OpenYourEyes]

And let the man who is devoted to the love of boys submit to the same punishment, since he pursues that pleasure which is contrary to nature

The Works of Philo (Special Laws chapter, paragraph 7, line 39 )...http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book29.html

-------------

Here is Jewish historian Josephus explaining marriage in Jewish law/culture:

But then, what are our laws about marriage? That law owns no other mixture of sexes but that which nature hath appointed, of a man with his wife: and that this be used only for the procreation of children. But it abhors the mixture of a male with a male.

From Josephus - Against Apion book ii- paragraph #25
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/apion-2.html

Notice the recurring theme among Jewish authors regarding male and female sex acts being in accordance with nature (God's design or purpose?) which goes w/ Romans chapter 1.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 12 by OpenYourEyes]

That is their opinion. Are they God? Were they prophets? Your opinion also avoids the questions at hand and lists no reason why other than it matches someone elses opinion. How is your opinion supported by the bible?

bear in mind Josephus was hundreds if not thousands of years separated from the authors of the old testament. His opinion is no more valid than any other biblical scholar today and probably less so due to a lack of education compared to a modern education.

[Haven]

I won't argue that some Christians are hateful toward homosexuals. That is not okay.

As a queer person, I see no difference between "being hateful" and "righteously" condemning non-heterosexuals by throwing Bible verses at us and saying that we'll burn for our "sin." It's the same hate and ignorance, just dressed up in "holy" wrapping.

Also, please avoid using the term "homosexuals" when speaking about gay and lesbian people. It's disrespectful. "Homosexuality" is an orientation, but people are not "homosexuals." Instead, use "gay and lesbian" because these are the preferred respectful terms.

Don't people stop to wonder why God would denounce such behavior?

I don't believe she/he/it has, in fact, I don't believe that God exists at all (as anything more than a human construct). Ancient human authors--who also railed against such atrocities as planting two kinds of seed in the same field and wearing clothing made from mixed fabrics--denounced male homosexual sex (and even this is up for debate). Why should such a prohibition be taken seriously today, especially given the numerous ways in which Christianity has theologically evolved since that passage was written (hint: no other prohibitions in Leviticus are still followed)?

No, that certainly isn't biblical. He wants what is best for us, and being the creator of us, he knows best. It's just like a parent wanting what is best for a child, even when the child feels like doing something the parent doesn't approve of. Even if the parent says "because I said so," we know there is a real reason behind the prohibition that the child may not understand completely.

What is this reason? No Christian has come up with a rational answer.

We are not children. Certainly if some rational reason exists for prohibiting homosexuality, it could be put into terms that an educated adult could understand (we're capable of understanding other ethical issues). If no such reason exists then the prohibition is irrational and absurd.

Also, referencing my first question, why should anyone believe that those passages in Leviticus (and arguably Romans) are messages from a God?

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 12 by OpenYourEyes]

That is their opinion. Are they God? Were they prophets? Your opinion also avoids the questions at hand and lists no reason why other than it matches someone elses opinion. How is your opinion supported by the bible?

bear in mind Josephus was hundreds if not thousands of years separated from the authors of the old testament. His opinion is no more valid than any other biblical scholar today and probably less so due to a lack of education compared to a modern education.

I quoted from the works of Philo and Josephus and eventhough they were not alive to experience the OT time period but both were alive to experience the NT time period or 1st century CE.

What these two historical figures wrote is not much different than what the apostle Paul expressed in Romans 1 about nature and unnatural desires, etc. Jesus also lived in 1st century CE and all of his extant teachings on marriage are about man being with women.

If you are a Christian but also a gay marriage supporter it gets worse for you since i can invoke supernatural explanations, like divine revelation. Paul and Jesus did not have to be alive in the OT period to know about the culture back tgen since God couldve used divine revelation to show them. Paul and Jesus had writings of the prophets and Law from the OT era to refer to as did the Essenes (ie Dead Sea Scrolls) and they predate Jesus.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to OpenYourEyes]

If you are a Christian but also a gay marriage supporter it gets worse for you since i can invoke supernatural explanations, like divine revelation. Paul and Jesus did not have to be alive in the OT period to know about the culture back tgen since God couldve used divine revelation to show them. Paul and Jesus had writings of the prophets and Law from the OT era to refer to as did the Essenes (ie Dead Sea Scrolls) and they predate Jesus.

If your going to invoke the supernatural route then how can you say the Presbyterian church did not receive divine revelation when deciding on making gay marriage a rite of the church?

How do you know they has writings from the OT era 1500-1000 BCE? The Dead Sea scrolls are not dated any where close to that. The earliest manuscript fragments are dated around 700-800 BCE. Still hundreds of years removed from the described events.

So you have really no biblical support for your claims just opinions of someone's opinion. The bible says people who commit sodomy should be stoned to death. Let's agree for the sake of argument it is against nature. What about divorcees getting remarried? It specifically addresses this even Jesus addresses this, yet gay marriage which the bible never addresses is rallied against?

If you believe being gay or a lesbian is against nature and wrong, the only logical conclusion would be to go straight for the death penalty anything less is non biblical.

[Haven]

Here is Jewish historian Josephus explaining marriage in Jewish law/culture:

But then, what are our laws about marriage? That law owns no other mixture of sexes but that which nature hath appointed, of a man with his wife: and that this be used only for the procreation of children. But it abhors the mixture of a male with a male.

From Josephus - Against Apion book ii- paragraph #25
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/apion-2.html

Notice the recurring theme among Jewish authors regarding male and female sex acts being in accordance with nature (God's design or purpose?) which goes w/ Romans chapter 1.

OK, so Josephus was scientifically ignorant and homophobic (like many men of his time). How is this relevant? What does that have to do with the Bible or its views on marriage for same-sex couples?

By the way, homosexuality is found in thousands of non-human animal species, so it's ridiculous to say that nature "abhors the mixture of a male and a male."

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 1 by DanieltheDragon]

Marriage has nothing to do with it from my experience. It's simply a means that people use to discriminate against others (in this case gays). It's something to hide behind while spouting hate that's protected in the USA at least, but the government.
In other words, 'gay marriage' is a catalyst to stir hate and distaste among other groups.

I won't argue that some Christians are hateful toward homosexuals. That is not okay.

Don't people stop to wonder why God would denounce such behavior? Because he hates certain people? No, that certainly isn't biblical. He wants what is best for us, and being the creator of us, he knows best. It's just like a parent wanting what is best for a child, even when the child feels like doing something the parent doesn't approve of. Even if the parent says "because I said so," we know there is a real reason behind the prohibition that the child may not understand completely.

Which is all fine-n-dandy if you believe God WROTE the bible - that every word is God written (or at least inspired) even those that contradict other words.
But not everyone does - I would say most Christians don't even believe that.
God didn't write the bile - men did.
Men, faulty, sexist, error prone, uneducated, ignorant, social accepting men.
Not the creatures I would rely on writing something that is supposed to influence my eternal soul! lol

[KCKID]

[Replying to post 12 by OpenYourEyes]

That is their opinion. Are they God? Were they prophets? Your opinion also avoids the questions at hand and lists no reason why other than it matches someone elses opinion. How is your opinion supported by the bible?

bear in mind Josephus was hundreds if not thousands of years separated from the authors of the old testament. His opinion is no more valid than any other biblical scholar today and probably less so due to a lack of education compared to a modern education.

I quoted from the works of Philo and Josephus and eventhough they were not alive to experience the OT time period but both were alive to experience the NT time period or 1st century CE.

What these two historical figures wrote is not much different than what the apostle Paul expressed in Romans 1 about nature and unnatural desires, etc.

Whatever we take from Paul's referring to nature and unnatural desires we really do need to read Romans 1 in context which, unfortunately, most Christians don't seem to do. They all too often begin Romans 1 at verses 26-27 with nary an explanation of the verses that precede them. One might be forgiven for thinking that this is intentional since verses 26-27 are all that are required to slam gay people which is, after all, their intent for bringing up Romans 1 in the first place!

Romans 1:21 and on describes "those who once knew God but turned away and rather worshiped images made in the likeness of mortal men, birds, animals and reptiles." I believe from reading the chapter in context that Paul is talking about Gentile idolatry which, it would appear, had begun to encroach on the early Christian Church, both in Corinth from where he's writing and also within the Roman Church. WHILE STILL in this 'idolatry mindset' Paul goes on to describe (albeit vaguely) WHAT some of those idolatry practices entailed. They included sexual fertility rites that involved dalliances between male/male;female/female participants (and may also have included bestiality) that were seen by Paul to be 'unnatural' exhibitions of one's 'normal' HETEROSEXUAL sexuality.

That's the very brief explanation.

Does anyone have a different take than the one I describe above regarding Romans 1:21-27? How can Paul NOT have been referring to pagan idolatry and the sexual practices that were affiliated with idolatry?