Suggested change in Rule #5

[cnorman19]

I would suggest a change to Rule #5 that I regard as an important and necessary one.

Repeatedly failing to acknowledge or respond to arguments, then repeating one's claims or positions as if no arguments against them had been made -- or, alternatively, repeatedly MISSTATING opposing arguments and then pretending they have been refuted -- should be classified as a "Repeated Unsubstantiated Claim."

I know that no one is required to respond to any argument; but falsifying an argument is not the same thing as "not responding" to it; and continuing in a debate while simultaneously ignoring opposing arguments without comment or response is quite a different thing as well. Both strike me as fundamentally dishonest and deceptive, and are very frequently indeed engaged in here with impunity.

Comments?

[Divine Insight]

I totally agree that refusing to address/acknowledge the points brought up by debate opponents is very common. However, that would be an extremely difficult rule to enforce wouldn't it?

For example, a person may view their opponent as doing this, whilst being totally unable to recognize that they themselves are guilty of doing precisely this very thing.

This would be an extremely difficult issue to settle.

[cnorman19]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Oh, I don't think it would be so hard. Examples abound, and have been commented upon rather often. Even by the mods themselves on occasion.

[OpenYourEyes]

I would suggest a change to Rule #5 that I regard as an important and necessary one.

Repeatedly failing to acknowledge or respond to arguments, then repeating one's claims or positions as if no arguments against them had been made -- or, alternatively, repeatedly MISSTATING opposing arguments and then pretending they have been refuted -- should be classified as a "Repeated Unsubstantiated Claim."

I know that no one is required to respond to any argument; but falsifying an argument is not the same thing as "not responding" to it; and continuing in a debate while simultaneously ignoring opposing arguments without comment or response is quite a different thing as well. Both strike me as fundamentally dishonest and deceptive, and are very frequently indeed engaged in here with impunity.

Comments?

Your points are valid but as Divine Insight brought up the issue then becomes enforceability. Not to say that it cant be done but the plaintiff should be the one to gather all of the evidence (relevant data, the repeated unsubstantiated claims, etc) so thst way the moderators dont go digging for it themselves especially in long and complex posts.

Maybe narrow down what you feel your opponent is ignoring and confront them.with it then if they dont respond and continue with false claims then report them.

There is one loophole and that is willful ignorance. You can not force someone to drop their false or unreasonable view BUT you can at least stop them from claiming that its a fact. They should specify that it's a belief or opinion

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Oh, I don't think it would be so hard. Examples abound, and have been commented upon rather often. Even by the mods themselves on occasion.

What is is that you are even trying to "Debate" Charles?

That you have a right to believe in Judaism however you so desire?

Is so, then you won't get any debate from me at all. You are more than welcome to believe whatever you so desire.

However, if you intend to debate that your views on Judaism represent a religion that has strong merit, then I see nothing wrong with posting my reasons why I see that your claim is not the least bit compelling.

And that's all I've been doing.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 4 by OpenYourEyes]

I'm not even sure what Charles even wants or expects.

He is more than free, and welcome, to believe whatever he so desires.

But if he wants to argue in debate the merits of his beliefs, then why does he become so upset when someone voices the reason why they don't find his beliefs to be compelling?

Most of the time I don't even understand exactly what it is that he's trying to "Debate".

It seems, from my perspective, that he becomes quickly upset if I simply don't find his arguments compelling and offer my reasons why I don't find them to be compelling.

[cnorman19]

I would suggest a change to Rule #5 that I regard as an important and necessary one.

Repeatedly failing to acknowledge or respond to arguments, then repeating one's claims or positions as if no arguments against them had been made -- or, alternatively, repeatedly MISSTATING opposing arguments and then pretending they have been refuted -- should be classified as a "Repeated Unsubstantiated Claim."

I know that no one is required to respond to any argument; but falsifying an argument is not the same thing as "not responding" to it; and continuing in a debate while simultaneously ignoring opposing arguments without comment or response is quite a different thing as well. Both strike me as fundamentally dishonest and deceptive, and are very frequently indeed engaged in here with impunity.

Comments?

Your points are valid but as Divine Insight brought up the issue then becomes enforceability. Not to say that it cant be done but the plaintiff should be the one to gather all of the evidence (relevant data, the repeated unsubstantiated claims, etc) so thst way the moderators dont go digging for it themselves especially in long and complex posts.

Maybe narrow down what you feel your opponent is ignoring and confront them.with it then if they dont respond and continue with false claims then report them.

There is one loophole and that is willful ignorance. You can not force someone to drop their false or unreasonable view BUT you can at least stop them from claiming that its a fact. They should specify that it's a belief or opinion

I will be happy to PM you links to a number of threads where this has occurred. For instance, where the person has misstated and distorted my views, has been repeatedly corrected on his misstatements, and still continued to repost those same misstatements multiple times while ignoring correction. Also, where numerous arguments of mine have been deleted from responses and ignored -- and where those deleted arguments have been pointed out multiple times, and where those arguments are STILL ignored without so much as being acknowledged. I might also note that those posts have been regularly reported with no visible result.

THAT is the kind of behavior that I think needs to be sanctioned and not tacitly condoned.

Links on request.

[OpenYourEyes]

Your points are valid but as Divine Insight brought up the issue then becomes enforceability. Not to say that it cant be done but the plaintiff should be the one to gather all of the evidence (relevant data, the repeated unsubstantiated claims, etc) so thst way the moderators dont go digging for it themselves especially in long and complex posts.

Maybe narrow down what you feel your opponent is ignoring and confront them.with it then if they dont respond and continue with false claims then report them.

There is one loophole and that is willful ignorance. You can not force someone to drop their false or unreasonable view BUT you can at least stop them from claiming that its a fact. They should specify that it's a belief or opinion

I will be happy to PM you links to a number of threads where this has occurred. For instance, where the person has misstated and distorted my views, has been repeatedly corrected on his misstatements, and still continued to repost those same misstatements multiple times while ignoring correction. Also, where numerous arguments of mine have been deleted from responses and ignored -- and where those deleted arguments have been pointed out multiple times, and where those arguments are STILL ignored without so much as being acknowledged. I might also note that those posts have been regularly reported with no visible result.

THAT is the kind of behavior that I think needs to be sanctioned and not tacitly condoned.

Links on request.

I have no doubts that this does occur because it happens to me on occasion, as well (not really taking sides here). As I mentioned earlier I do believe that your suggestion is enforceable.

I would PM one of the mods about it or hopefully one or more of them will respond here to your evidence. The mods or one of the two admins should be able to explain why they don't accept your violation report.

I would also keep in mind that this is the internet and you will encounter a variety of people - some honest and some not. SOMEtimes the moderators will help. I keep that as my expectations so that I don't get stressed out taking forum sites too seriously, especially some of the other forums where I found moderation is virtually ineffective or unfair in a majority of the cases.

[cnorman19]

[Replying to post 8 by OpenYourEyes]

Thanks, but believe me, I'm aware of all that. I cut my debating teeth on the old Netscape forums, where moderation was like God -- many people claimed it existed, but no one ever saw any evidence of it. I've debated true psychopaths, child molesters, actual no-kidding Nazis, and worse. The tough guys around here are amateurs.

I think the responses to this suggestion are pretty revealing in themselves. Funny how quickly the thread became about ME....

[Zzyzx]

.

I'm not even sure what Charles even wants or expects.

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