Where did God's creation get the idea to disobey/commit evil

[Hatuey]

In another thread, the participants are discussing whether Adam and Eve gained something or not, namely knowledge (from eating of the Tree of Good and Evil), and whether it seems like a sensible trade.

During that discussion, a member claimed that everything God created was created "good" including thinking beings like angels, Adam and Eve, and, apparently, the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. Now, supposedly according to most Christian thought, these beings were able to disobey or "sin" by utilizing their free will.

[I do not intend this thread to be about Free Will or the Problem of Evil. Please!]


The question of the thread is this:
Where did these allgood beings, created with no knowledge of sin or evil but only created with goodness get the idea to disobey or commit sin/"evil?"

The question works for the angels and Lucifer's revolt in heaven; the question works for Adam and Eve (especially since it's hard to imagine how they could commit a sin before they had the knowledge of good and evil that came from eating of the tree); the question works for "the Serpent" in the Garden.

And for the fun of it, let's assume that these createdallgood beings have the ability to witness sin and choose to commit it. Where would they witness sin in order to choose to do it? How/why would a createdallgood being choose to commit sin? Wouldn't the createdallgood being measure that nongood of sin against the only thing he knows/experiences with it allgoodfromGod and therefore not choose what is not allgoodfromGod?

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 48 by ttruscott]

Choice is irrelevant if the choosing person has no knowledge or idea about one of the options.

If you were created only blue and all blue and put into a blue environment, you wouldn't know about any other colors. You would have no way to choose nonblue unless it were introduced into the environment. Nonblue can't arise from only blue.


Replace the word "blue" above with the word "good" and you understand the question of the OP.

[OpenYourEyes]

[Replying to post 48 by ttruscott]

Choice is irrelevant if the choosing person has no knowledge or idea about one of the options.

If you were created only blue and all blue and put into a blue environment, you wouldn't know about any other colors. You would have no way to choose nonblue unless it were introduced into the environment. Nonblue can't arise from only blue.


Replace the word "blue" above with the word "good" and you understand the question of the OP.

Your analogy implies that God only created Adam and Eve to be morally good. This again is an unsupported claim and thst's twice youve failed to address my point about how "good" has more than one meaning while repeating your same claim about creating good.

Also from rereading the Adam and Eve story, God actually told Adam and Eve what evil would be in Genesis 2:17. God tells them not to eat from the tree which represents the moral good. AND He tells them the morally evil scenario when He says what would happen if they did eat from the tree. Surely, this alone would have given them the idea of eatting from the tree which is immoral.

Genesis 2:17
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.�

Please support your following claims:
1. God created Adam and Eve to be all-good in a moral sense.
2. Please prove to me that my views as you said they were wrong.

[Hatuey]

[Replying to post 52 by OpenYourEyes]

I've already explained. The question, as I have posed it, was in response to another member's statement. You may disagree with that Christian. I have no idea. However, the question assumes such a proposition as was handed to me.

The question remains, though. Why does God allow evil as an optio? I don't have the ability to blow my car up with a dashboard switch while driving down the highway because the auto manufacturer did not design my car and dashboard that way. Why did God allow evil as a choice in his good garden?

Additionally, how did Adam or Eve know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they are of the tree to know the difference beteeen good and evil?

For the Christian I reference, who believes God created all good creatures and put them in an all good garden with other all good creations, hi does the idea arise to do something completely foreign to everything they know and everything they are?

[Hamsaka]

In another thread, the participants are discussing whether Adam and Eve gained something or not, namely knowledge (from eating of the Tree of Good and Evil), and whether it seems like a sensible trade.

During that discussion, a member claimed that everything God created was created "good" including thinking beings like angels, Adam and Eve, and, apparently, the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. Now, supposedly according to most Christian thought, these beings were able to disobey or "sin" by utilizing their free will.

[I do not intend this thread to be about Free Will or the Problem of Evil. Please!]


The question of the thread is this:
Where did these allgood beings, created with no knowledge of sin or evil but only created with goodness get the idea to disobey or commit sin/"evil?"

The question works for the angels and Lucifer's revolt in heaven; the question works for Adam and Eve (especially since it's hard to imagine how they could commit a sin before they had the knowledge of good and evil that came from eating of the tree); the question works for "the Serpent" in the Garden.

And for the fun of it, let's assume that these createdallgood beings have the ability to witness sin and choose to commit it. Where would they witness sin in order to choose to do it? How/why would a createdallgood being choose to commit sin? Wouldn't the createdallgood being measure that nongood of sin against the only thing he knows/experiences with it allgoodfromGod and therefore not choose what is not allgoodfromGod?

I think this question reveals the inadequacy of 'obedience' as a strict moral code.

Since the writers were immersed in a moral code that centered on obedience to gods, the A&E tale was the edge of the moral horizon. Do not disobey God! It's the same moral imperative that forms the theme of the whole Bible.

There's a lot more to modern moral/ethical sensibilities than strict obedience (to any authority figure, much less a proposed god), which brings the inconsistencies and irrationalities of the A&E moral tale forth.

A created being who is allgoodfromGod couldn't conceive of 'evil' at all, there'd be no conceptual basis for it. The Serpent gave Eve a compelling reason to eat the forbidden fruit and and she ate it in spite of God's command. Disobedience in her case seems innocent, like a small child finding the sugar bowl. She was 'overcome' by curiosity and the idea of having greater abilities (knowledge). It wasn't until after she ate and shared with Adam that either of them realized the consequences of disobeying God. They were innocents, if we stay consistent logically.

That God didn't tell the truth about them dying, nor warn them that they would be kicked out of the Garden of Eden if they ate the fruit is interesting. What seems to matter, above all, is that God must not be disobeyed, whatever he says. He's not an 'understanding parent' teaching his children to delay gratification, he's more the punishing type, and that is consistent. Where humans (made in God's image, purportedly) got the idea to be gentle, kind and firm with our offspring instead of extreme punishment for innocent disobedience is very interesting. Apparently we are capable of kindness toward each other that exceeds God's. Not to mention better understanding of human nature than God, and a willingness to work out a kinder solution that reinforces obedience (which is vitally necessary, especially when children are young).

[joejoeson]

Creation is a mirror image of God, the only difference being that God is Eternal whereas the world is perpetual, as such it is just an image, not the real thing, this illusionary aspect of the world is where it acquires its inferiority, it's sin, it's "evil," but nothing is truly evil since it is all the work of God.

Humans have the unique experience to understand the nature of the Creator and his love of all things, and can unite with their Eternal Soul to understand God's nature as it rises above all other things. Animals cannot do this, and as far as we know, neither can plants or trees, though they are guided in this direction as they worship the sun. Humans however must guide their minds towards the intellectual light within them so they can see the glorious truth that is God.

Here is a thread that you can debate me on: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=28134
And if you would like to email me: juliancarmen@gmx.com

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 48 by ttruscott]

Choice is irrelevant if the choosing person has no knowledge or idea about one of the options.

...

What option do you think we had no knowledge or idea about? Did I ever claim we had no knowledge or idea about any option at all? Nope, because I contend that for a choice to be by free will, ALL OPTIONS AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF ALL OPTIONS MUST BE KNOWN AND UNDERSTOOD, or you are making a guess, not a true choice at all. You target the wroooong person here. Back up, regroup, go again, eh?

[ttruscott]

double

[ttruscott]

...
The question remains, though. Why does God allow evil as an optio?

...

As per post #38:

GOD allowed evil as an option because HE wanted us to enter into the heavenly communion of marriage with HIM and a forced marriage is no marriage at all.

A Free means the result of the choice is not forced on anyone.
A True choice means the choice is made with full knowledge of all options and full disclosure of the consequences of every option so it is a real choice, not a mere guess.

HE wanted us to freely choose to enter the heavenly state of marriage with HIM so HE had to allow us the right, opportunity and ability to say no, no matter the consequences.

[Hatuey]

[Replying to joejoeson]

I don't understand how your response addresses fhe question.

As to all the things people can do in relation to God and whatnot, I can't imagine that you have anything like proof.

[Cewakiyelo]

[Replying to post 52 by OpenYourEyes]

I've already explained. The question, as I have posed it, was in response to another member's statement. You may disagree with that Christian. I have no idea. However, the question assumes such a proposition as was handed to me.

The question remains, though. Why does God allow evil as an optio? I don't have the ability to blow my car up with a dashboard switch while driving down the highway because the auto manufacturer did not design my car and dashboard that way. Why did God allow evil as a choice in his good garden?

Additionally, how did Adam or Eve know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they are of the tree to know the difference beteeen good and evil?

For the Christian I reference, who believes God created all good creatures and put them in an all good garden with other all good creations, hi does the idea arise to do something completely foreign to everything they know and everything they are?

The question hold no real substance. It assumes that there is evil or good. The member from the other post suggests that evil and good are derived from an alteration of the mind cause by ingesting toxic substance. That toxin coming from the Tree of Knowledge. In other words Evil is a creation of man caused by an altered state of consciousness. It does not imply that man was not created good. It implies that the good creation of man consumed something not meant for them and became ill.

Evil is not the issue to God. It is not the fact that we place monikers upon what we think is good or evil, it is what we do once we have labeled them. Do we say this is wrong and refuse to do those things, thus correcting ourselves, and leave it at that. No problem. However, do we say this is wrong and then impose and correct others to our way of thinking??? Unless we have created something we really have no business imposing our will upon it. The only one that would have that right would be the Creator of that which was created..

For your argument to hold any validity it must assume that what that plant yielded was actually real and truthful knowledge as God would view it. Can you show evidence that what was gained was real knowledge of good and evil? I will offer some that says otherwise.

You ask how Adam knew it was wrong. It was not a matter of it being right or wrong. It was a matter of it being healthy or deadly. As the other referenced member pointed out in other post, prior to eating of the plant they were naive. They were naked and unashamed. God created them as naked and thus should feel no shame. Yet, when they ate of the plant they suddenly saw themselves as naked and shameful. A delusion produced by their own minds after eating that plant. A delusion that was not linked to the reality of God's creation. That being that their nudity was not shameful. Prior to that Adam and Eve did not know good and evil. They only knew that they were told if they eat that plant, bad things were going to happen to them. After they ate they still did not know good and evil. They manifested good and evil in their distorted minds and began passing the false knowledge on to everyone they came in contact with. They began imposing and enforcing those ideals upon their children.

So again the answer to your question of where man got the notion of good and evil is from the Tree of Knowledge. It was caused by sickness that the plant caused after ingestion. Just because things are created good does not mean they are meant to last forever. Good things decay and die away. And that is good as well.

Physical death was not the death they were heading for when they ate that plant. Because the plant distorted their minds they walked away from their relationship with God. They began to say I do not need God. I can get by on my own. By my own labor and knowledge I can carve out my own life right here. I do not need to move over there only to move yet again over there.. I will stay here and do it my way. Problem is the part of the living being that has potential to live on after physical death, the spirit, requires that relationship with God. Without it spiritual death occurs. It ends up withering away to non-existence.