Does he have a valid point?

[Zzyzx]

.

Bill Maher:
"When I hear from people that religion doesn't hurt anything, I say really? Well besides wars, the crusades, the inquisitions, 9-11, ethnic cleansing, the suppression of women, the suppression of homosexuals, fatwas, honor killings, suicide bombings, arranged marriages to minors, human sacrifice, burning witches, and systematic sex with children, I have a few little quibbles. And I forgot blowing up girl schools in Afghanistan."

Some say "The good outweighs the bad." If so what is that weighty good?

Many say "That is just the other religions." Is that true?

[Lion IRC]

@Zzyzx

Here highlighted in red are the substantive points for which I'm surprised you didnt make the effort to rush in to Bill Mahers defense. Of course you dont have to, but it is your Op.

.

Bill Maher:

Bill who???? Is he some media celebrity?

..."When I hear from people that religion doesn't hurt anything, I say really?

Oh...great. Bill Whatisname shares Baron Von Munchausen anecdotes about all the
(faceless) people he "hears from" who allegedly tell him stuff - naturally he then proceeds to devastate them with his intellectual superiority. Good one Bill.

I betcha I can beat him in a game of duelling anecdotes. But that's probably because I don't live in his amazing shiny TV world where folks beat a path to my door in order to tell me they think religion is wonderful.

...Well besides wars,

The wars? WW1 and WW2 saw Christians fighting each other. How can THAT be over Christianity? Two Christians fighting over money and power is NOT automatically a 'religious' war - it's the opposite of what their religion teaches.
And WW2 ended (notionally) when someone dropped a device called an atom bomb (invented by physicists) on a city killing hundreds of thousands of men, women and children. Lawrence Krauss (a physicist) rants about the biblical slaughter of the Amalekites. But the dead children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki want to know what religion invented the technology which slaughtered them?
Yeah sure, (atheist) physicists want to spend $$$ billions finding water on Mars and life in outer space - meanwhile millions of human lives here on Earth don't have clean drinking water. But go right on ahead Bill Maher, stick it up religion and poison the well by attacking those whose religious charity takes care of people you NEVER hear from.

...the crusades,

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they had democracy back then. Kings and Queens and Emperors and Sultans perhaps did fight over territory they deemed spiritually important, and they used conscripted soldiers or mercenaries who may or may not have shared in, or benefited from, their ruler's ambition. So the Crusades are hardly representative of humans desire to fight over religion.

...the inquisitions,

How many died in total?
Now how many of those died on account of their religious belief as opposed to their political belief?
The facts will disappoint Mr Maher.
(The huge irony here is that, just like Torquemada and the Spanish Government, Bill Maher probably also hates religion interfering in the politics of the State)

...9-11,

An attack on America - not on Christianity.

...ethnic cleansing,

Politics.
Nuff said!
If it were religion, Hitler would have struggled with the idea that...there is neither Jew nor gentile, neither slave nor free...we are all one in Christ.

... the suppression of women,

I love it when a man (Bill Maher) insults muslim women by insisting that they couldn't POSSIBLY choose to wear a burka or freely love their Islamic religion. What is it Bill? You think they aren't smart enough to realise?

... the suppression of homosexuals,

Like-minded religious people living in the same constituency or State, tend to give mandates to those who share the same political/moral values. Are the voters of Indonesia supposed to approve gay marriage just because Norwegians do?

...fatwas,

How many thousands of humans have been killed by a 'fatwa' (a legally binding executive order) of the Commander in Chief of the U.S. military?
Now, answer me this fatwa question? Is post-fatwa Salman Rushdie still alive?

... honor killings,

Yep people kill other people for lots of reasons. Cain killed Abel. That's in the bible.
I supposed Bill Maher thinks that's a religious murder too.

...suicide bombings,

Suicide is haram - forbidden - in Islam. So are drugs.
(Many suicide bombers are given drugs beforehand.)
Now you tell me. Is that theologically sound religious doctrine which Bill Maher is using to build his strawman?

... arranged marriages to minors,

Oh, that's precious! Someone trying to draw a line in the sand. Bill Maher, moral campaigner for traditional marriage.
Here's a guy who would try to justify same-sex attraction on the basis of what happens in the animal kingdom yet wilfully ignores the biological reality that many/most females are capable of bearing children well-before they turn 18/21.
Hey Bill, the LGBTQ lobby asserts that teenage boys can decide to come-out. So presumably they can give informed sexual consent. What if they fell in love and wanted to get married Bill???

...human sacrifice,

I think I'm gonna puke in my mouth.
We sacrifice more humans than ever before in the history of the human race.
Abortions as convenient birth control by the MILLIONS!
We let people die as ends-justifies-the-means 'collateral damage' every day. Preventable deaths but too expensive for us to be bothered so we let them be sacrificed.

...burning witches,

Not real witches.
If you burn someone who isn't a witch that's simply murder.
The bible doesn't condone burning people who are not witches.
Now, in the story of Hansel and Gretel there is a real witch who conspires to abduct, murder and cannibalize little children.
If such a crime happened in America that witch would fry!

... and systematic sex with children,

Children can be euthanased in enlightened, libertarian Belgium. They can give consent to their own death. Yes, we don't protect children anywhere near as much as we ought. Let's invade Belgium and put a stop to this disgusting abomination. Who knows, we might even uncover the worlds largest pedophile ring in Belgium too.
In neighbouring Germany pet brothels are legal too. Systematic sex with animals.
Not sure about the religion demography of Europe. I seem to recall its heavily atheist.

... I have a few little quibbles. And I forgot blowing up girl schools in Afghanistan."

Muslims killing Muslims.
Yep - obviously just what Allah wants.

Bill Maher should take aim at the worlds largest religion and see how many people kill for money - Mamon worship. The root of all evil.

But I guess Bill is too gutless to take a swing at the powers and principalities which pay his wages - big advertisers, big media company proprieters, big business whose revenue comes in direct proportion to the seductiveness of materialistic hedonism.

...And the acceptance of slavery, don't forget that one.

Slavery is a function of economic greed.
Does the bible condone greed?

Slavery is the theft of a person's labor without pay.
What does the bible say about stealing?

Do most slave owners love money?
What does the bible say is the root of all evil?

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 29 by AdHoc]

Thank you for the usual (and in many ways unusual) thoughtful and challenging post.

But wouldn't that be like saying, nuclear technology is bad?

I maintain that mining and concentrating of radioactive materials IS BAD, foolish and very dangerous. Humans need sources of energy; however, there are alternatives that do not pose the massive risks of the nuclear industry.

When radioactive materials are dispersed in the rocks of the Earth's crust they pose minimal, if any, danger to life forms, particularly when deep underground. When those materials are mined and concentrated they become deadly – and retain their destructive potential for thousands of years or longer. Accidents happen, as we have seen repeatedly, with the result being uninhabitable areas that will persist for many generations.

Creating weapons of war is a very inappropriate use of those materials. Generating electricity is not much better (and may prove worse in the long run). So far nuclear accidents have had minimal impact on heavily populated areas – but many nuclear generating plants are very close to and downwind from major population concentrations.

I suggest that if religious organizations have value to society, instead of railing impotently against homosexual marriage and abortion or promoting themselves they should learn about nuclear dangers and actively campaign against all concentration of nuclear materials – and promote development of a system to safely dispose of radioactive materials accumulated over the past seventy-five years.

. . . if we rid the universe of nuclear power we'd lose the sun too.

The sun is the only nuclear facility that is relatively safe – being 93 million miles away. Even that has potential to inflict massive damage to life on Earth and/or life as we know it.

So we'll keep on going nuclear for now.

Evidently so – until a nuclear war or major disaster makes it obvious that nuclear weapons and power were a very stupid and costly mistake.

What about religion, is there any good reason to keep it?

Religions seem to be useful or necessary for some people – perhaps enough so to justify their existence whether what they teach is truthful or not.

Should we rid the world of these religious lessons? do unto others as you would have them do unto you, love your neighbour as yourself, love your enemies, turn the other cheek, care for widows and orphans, care for the least of these, share your bread with the hungry.

Those idealisms are NOT exclusive to religion and certainly not exclusive to Christianity. The same ideas can be (and are often) taught by other ideologies and cultural systems.

I agree with Mr Maher that the deeds in his list are terrible and we should rid ourselves of that

That makes three of us . . .

but do the teachings of Jesus Christ encourage a person to do those things?

The teachings of Jesus might have some value IF they were followed – even by Christians. From what I see there is a lot of talk and very little following (and I have a good observation point as resident of the Bible Belt – in addition to seeing the actions of many Christian members of this Forum).

If we did away with Christ's teachings would those things be more or less likely to have happened?

Perhaps the objection is not the teachings of Jesus – but to the actions of many who claim to be FOLLOWERS of Jesus. Their actions often don't reflect his words. Several of the atrocities mentioned tie directly to officials of Christendom and their flocks.

[enviousintheeverafter]

I wonder why Christianity is declining among educated, intelligent people and nations.

I dont think it is.

Well, at least in the US it is (though I've seen similar polls in other countries as well- the trend appears to be pretty widespread):

The Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing, according to an extensive new survey by the Pew Research Center...

The percentage of college graduates who identify with Christianity has declined by nine percentage points since 2007 (from 73% to 64%).

(View entire article here)

[Lion IRC]

[Replying to post 33 by enviousintheeverafter]

Zzyzx didnt say... "US college graduates"

"...Christianity is declining among educated, intelligent people and nations"

China (and Asian countries in general) - higher or lower IQ's????

Now, is Christianity growing or shrinking in China?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 31 by Lion IRC]

As might be apparent, I chose to respond to a very rational and thoughtful post and ignore yours. Quite often I am content leaving people "hoisted on their own petard" for readers to evaluate.

Those who wish to rationalize or make excuses for atrocities committed by their religion or religions in general are welcome to attempt to convince readers -- with or without my assistance. The more they dig the deeper they get.

[Lion IRC]

.

Bill Maher:
"When I hear from people that religion doesn't hurt anything, I say really? Well besides wars, the crusades, the inquisitions, 9-11, ethnic cleansing, the suppression of women, the suppression of homosexuals, fatwas, honor killings, suicide bombings, arranged marriages to minors, human sacrifice, burning witches, and systematic sex with children, I have a few little quibbles. And I forgot blowing up girl schools in Afghanistan."

Some say "The good outweighs the bad." If so what is that weighty good?

Many say "That is just the other religions." Is that true?

I feel like there is something logically flawed in what Mr Maher is saying but I can't quite put my finger on what it is...

That suspected flaw you cant quite put your finger on is the logical fallacy known as post hoc ergo propter hoc

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to Lion IRC]

Certainly it is growing in china and a few other Asian countries. However that growth is stymying and might have to do with the unique circumstances involved. China officially banned Christianity during the cultural revolution. Christianity however had existed in China since the seventh century. As china relaxed religious bans the number of open adherents grew. The question is where is the peak belief during the bans the Christian population settled around 1% now it is at 2-4%.

Like all countries around the world they contain people of varying levels of education intelligence affluence and other factors. So the fact that Christianity is growing in china tells us nothing as to whether it is growing within the educated and intelligent considering the actual number is such a small percentage of the population.


What is curious though and telling is when you compare birth rates to demographic changes within religion. What this reveals is that birth rates alone within a religious demographic account for nearly all of its growth. What this shows is the total ineffectiveness of evangelizing. The growth of Christianity does not exceed Christian birthrates. Same can be said for Islam the key difference is the Islamic birthrate is nearly double that of the Christian birthrate. In 50 years Christianity will no longer be the most populous religion it will be usurped by Islam. The fastest growing demographic though is non-belief. It is the only demographic that far outstrips its birth rate.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 8 by Zzyzx]

Then I am sure you will agree and won't distance yourself from the fact that the ideology of evolution killed the most people last century. Let alone the Holocaust of abortion taking place today.

Yawn. You're going to name Hitler, aren't you? Either way, even IF what you say is true (which I won't agree with you on, but let's pretend I do), how does saying "These other guys with THEIR ideology did it too or did it worse!" somehow excuse or make us ignore the very real atrocities done by Christians over the centuries?

[Dropship]

..the very real atrocities done by Christians over the centuries?

What makes you think they're true Christians?

[Blastcat]

I feel like there is something logically flawed in what Mr Maher is saying but I can't quite put my finger on what it is...

Basically he wants his listeners to come to the conclusion that we need to rid the earth of all religion because of all the evil things that religious people have done.

But wouldn't that be like saying, nuclear technology is bad?

No, not at all. Nuclear technology isn't a religion. It doesn't pretend to stake it's place on some moral high ground. Nuclear technology is just that. a technology.. As we develop it.. it can be much safer and a great benefit to the world. I wonder how many people died in Chernobyl and Fukuyama and Three Mile Island put together?

What about religion, is there any good reason to keep it? Should we rid the world of these religious lessons? do unto others as you would have them do unto you, love your neighbour as yourself, love your enemies, turn the other cheek, care for widows and orphans, care for the least of these, share your bread with the hungry.

The moral ideas you mention don't need any religion to foster. Humanism suffices. We don't need supernatural gurus to explain any of this.

I agree with Mr Maher that the deeds in his list are terrible and we should rid ourselves of that but do the teachings of Jesus Christ encourage a person to do those things? If we did away with Christ's teachings would those things be more or less likely to have happened?

We could speculate. However, what Maher points out is that religions don't guarantee moral behavior.