Can you prove the Messiah strictly from the Hebrew bible/OT

[Avraham Ibn Ezra]

The subject was shortened due to the constraints of the subject heading and it's character limit. The full title would have read "can you prove the Messiah has or will come strictly based on the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament? And more..."

The task is simple:

Can you show direct, clear, and irrefutable examples strictly from the Hebrew bible/OT that the Messiah has or will come and that the Messiah will do specific things? If you can do this please provide examples and let's discuss and debate them.

Please bring one point at a time so that we can examine each carefully and discuss more thoroughly. Many people like to bring 500 examples at once and distort the whole process of discussion and debate.

Shalom,

Avraham Ibn Ezra

[Divine Insight]

Can you show direct, clear, and irrefutable examples strictly from the Hebrew bible/OT that the Messiah has or will come and that the Messiah will do specific things?

No. In fact, I've never seen any convincing or compelling evidence that there exists any coherent prophesies of any single Messiah. I think what actually exists are extreme vague mentions of prophecies that are so extremely vague and unclear that it would be impossible to say whether any of those prophecies ever came true or not.

The task is simple:

I don't think it's simple at all, either way. For every person who believe as I do, that prophesies are far too vague to even be meaningful at all, there exist other people who thrive on the vagueness and use it to jump to absurd concrete conclusions.

So the only way that I can "simply" this process is to simply say that I am not personally convinced of any of it. And that's sufficient for me.

~~~~~

Now having said the above, I would like to offer at least one very strong reason why I believe that the Christian Jesus could not possibly have been the supposed "Promised Messiah" mentioned in the Old Testament.

And the reason if very simple. It is my understanding (I'm not sure where to find this precise scripture) that the prophesy of the Messiah is pretty clear that the Messiah will be handed the throne of King David by God himself, AND that he will bring peace to all nations.

Those were to very profound prophesies that Jesus most certainly never met.

So I don't see where the Christian Jesus qualifies as being any promised Messiah.

~~~~~

The second point that I would like to make concerning the claim that Jesus was the promised Messiah is the following.

Let's ignore the clear reasons I just gave above for why Jesus could not have been the promised Messiah, and let's just assume that he was. What then?

Well, according to the Christian New Testament Jesus himself said the following:

Matt.24[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark.13[30] Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke.21[32] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

He supposed said this live to the people he was preaching to directly.

Therefore, if Jesus had prophesied that he would come back to collect the souls of his choosing (or the "rapture" as the Christians call it), then clearly that would have had to have come to pass before the generation that Jesus preached to had passed away.

Therefore if Jesus was the "Messiah" as the Christians claim, then the "rapture" must be over. It must have occurred shortly after Jesus had died, and there would be no reason for any person living on earth today to be expecting Jesus to come back now.

If Christianity is true, then the rapture is long over, and we can be nothing more than the decedents of the rejects.

So I don't see where Christianity works very well, even if Jesus was the promised Messiah.

~~~~~~

On a final note:

I personally see no reason to give Hebrew mythology or folklore, any serious consideration in any case. I don't see where the Hebrew Bible has anymore merit than Greek mythology save for possibly the fact that it was possibly only slightly better written and better recorded. Greek mythology tended to have a lot of fragmented unrelated stories, but that fit with Greek Mythology because it also allowed for polytheism, even though it was still basically monotheistic under Zeus as the "God of Gods".

In any case, I see nothing in the Old Testament that is convincing or compelling in terms of ever having made any credible prophesies of anything. So for me it's no longer an issue worthy of serious contemplation. I've already considered it in-depth to the hilt and found nothing worthy within it.

So that's my position on the Hebrew Bible. I see no reason to believe that there ever was any credible prophesies of any "Messiah". It's just mythology, folklore, and wishful thinking as far as I can see.

[YahDough]

The subject was shortened due to the constraints of the subject heading and it's character limit. The full title would have read "can you prove the Messiah has or will come strictly based on the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament? And more..."

The task is simple:

Can you show direct, clear, and irrefutable examples strictly from the Hebrew bible/OT that the Messiah has or will come and that the Messiah will do specific things? If you can do this please provide examples and let's discuss and debate them.

Please bring one point at a time so that we can examine each carefully and discuss more thoroughly. Many people like to bring 500 examples at once and distort the whole process of discussion and debate.

Shalom,

Avraham Ibn Ezra

There are a significant number of OT Prophesies made about Messiah Jesus that were fulfilled. I know you wanted to take one at a time but I have listed several. Feel free to comment on them. Thanks

Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34

Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled

1. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
2. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
3. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
4. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
5. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6

Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
2. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
3. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
4. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
5. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12

The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
3. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
4. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
5. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50

His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
2. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
3. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
4. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13

[Divine Insight]

Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4

What human isn't?

2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25

But how do we know that Jesus was born of a virgin?

They could just be making that claim precisely because it was prophesied.

3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34

They could just be making that claim precisely because it was prophesied.

Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled

1. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20

What? Where is there any evidence or reason to believe that Jesus per-existed creation? How can you call that a "Prophesy fulfilled"?

Sounds like just more superstitious rumors to me.


2. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36

It was common in those days for people to be calling just about everyone Lord.


3. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23

And who called Jesus Immanuel? Probably those who superstitiously believed that he was the Messiah? Once again, a self-fulfilling prophecy.


4. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
5. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6

Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3

Jesus himself proclaimed to be preaching of a greater one then himself to come.

That seemed to be the thing to do in those days.


2. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17

Sorry Jesus began in Bethlehem. So not points there.

3. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4

There's no evidence that Jesus performed any miracles. So once again this could just be hearsay rumors made up in an effort to make Jesus appear to be something he wasn't.

4. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35

Too common.

5. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12

It's highly unlikely that rumors would have been made up about anyone who never bothered with religion.

The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
3. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
4. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
5. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50

We don't know that any of those things actually happened. Every single one of those events could have been made up precisely for the purpose of trying to make out like Jesus was this promised messiah.

So none of those would qualify as "prophesy fulfilled". The people who wrote the Gospels rumors could have easily made all that stuff up. In fact, they most likely did since they kept pointing to the OT proclaiming that these particular prophesies were fulfilled. That's highly suspicious right there. They were clearly aware of what they needed Jesus to do.

His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
2. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
3. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
4. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13

And again, we have absolutely no evidence, or reason to believe that any of those things actually happened.

Moreover, the REAL PROPHECIES that never came to pass could not be faked.

Jesus was never handed the throne of the King of David to become the King of the Jews. These Gospel authors could hardly fake that one.

Jesus never brought peace among all nations. Once again, a prophesy that cannot be faked.

All of the prophesies that you have listed can easily be said to have occurred when in fact they never did.

Who would know whether Jesus was born of a virgin?

Why should anyone believe that Jesus performed miracles?

Why should anyone believe that Jesus was resurrected or ascended to heaven?

None of those things qualify as "prophesies fulfilled" because there is absolutely no way to know whether they were fulfilled or they were nothing more than false rumors.

I suspect they were the latter.

[Divine Insight]

His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
2. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
3. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
4. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13

In fact, if you stop and think about it just for a second, you should be able to see that if you could actually know that any of the above was true you wouldn't need to have any prophesy being fulfilled to be impressed by that.

Prophesy would be totally unnecessary.

So to claim that you know these prophesies were "Fulfilled" is the same as claiming that you know that all the claims above did in fact actually happen.

[Avraham Ibn Ezra]

Can you show direct, clear, and irrefutable examples strictly from the Hebrew bible/OT that the Messiah has or will come and that the Messiah will do specific things?

No. In fact, I've never seen any convincing or compelling evidence that there exists any coherent prophesies of any single Messiah. I think what actually exists are extreme vague mentions of prophecies that are so extremely vague and unclear that it would be impossible to say whether any of those prophecies ever came true or not.

The task is simple:

I don't think it's simple at all, either way. For every person who believe as I do, that prophesies are far too vague to even be meaningful at all, there exist other people who thrive on the vagueness and use it to jump to absurd concrete conclusions.

So the only way that I can "simply" this process is to simply say that I am not personally convinced of any of it. And that's sufficient for me.

~~~~~

Now having said the above, I would like to offer at least one very strong reason why I believe that the Christian Jesus could not possibly have been the supposed "Promised Messiah" mentioned in the Old Testament.

And the reason if very simple. It is my understanding (I'm not sure where to find this precise scripture) that the prophesy of the Messiah is pretty clear that the Messiah will be handed the throne of King David by God himself, AND that he will bring peace to all nations.

Those were to very profound prophesies that Jesus most certainly never met.

So I don't see where the Christian Jesus qualifies as being any promised Messiah.

~~~~~

The second point that I would like to make concerning the claim that Jesus was the promised Messiah is the following.

Let's ignore the clear reasons I just gave above for why Jesus could not have been the promised Messiah, and let's just assume that he was. What then?

Well, according to the Christian New Testament Jesus himself said the following:

Matt.24[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark.13[30] Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke.21[32] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

He supposed said this live to the people he was preaching to directly.

Therefore, if Jesus had prophesied that he would come back to collect the souls of his choosing (or the "rapture" as the Christians call it), then clearly that would have had to have come to pass before the generation that Jesus preached to had passed away.

Therefore if Jesus was the "Messiah" as the Christians claim, then the "rapture" must be over. It must have occurred shortly after Jesus had died, and there would be no reason for any person living on earth today to be expecting Jesus to come back now.

If Christianity is true, then the rapture is long over, and we can be nothing more than the decedents of the rejects.

So I don't see where Christianity works very well, even if Jesus was the promised Messiah.

~~~~~~

On a final note:

I personally see no reason to give Hebrew mythology or folklore, any serious consideration in any case. I don't see where the Hebrew Bible has anymore merit than Greek mythology save for possibly the fact that it was possibly only slightly better written and better recorded. Greek mythology tended to have a lot of fragmented unrelated stories, but that fit with Greek Mythology because it also allowed for polytheism, even though it was still basically monotheistic under Zeus as the "God of Gods".

In any case, I see nothing in the Old Testament that is convincing or compelling in terms of ever having made any credible prophesies of anything. So for me it's no longer an issue worthy of serious contemplation. I've already considered it in-depth to the hilt and found nothing worthy within it.

So that's my position on the Hebrew Bible. I see no reason to believe that there ever was any credible prophesies of any "Messiah". It's just mythology, folklore, and wishful thinking as far as I can see.

Thank you for your reply. From what I can tell you seem to exhibit the signs of being either agnostic or an Atheist in terms of how you approach the Bible. I'm not judging and in fact I think it adds to the perspective of the discussion. I honestly think your position and how you believe about the text is completely Rational based on the text and a certain POV which would be that you are most convinced by the claims and arguments of Agnosticism or Atheism, which is completely rational.

Thank you for adding to the discussion. However, lets leave the NT references out since it really isn't part of the discussion. I, as an Orthodox Jew, would not accept that as a proof of an argument.

Shalom,

Avraham Ibn Ezra

[Avraham Ibn Ezra]

There are a significant number of OT Prophesies made about Messiah Jesus that were fulfilled. I know you wanted to take one at a time but I have listed several. Feel free to comment on them. Thanks

Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34

Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled

1. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
2. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
3. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
4. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
5. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6

Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
2. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
3. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
4. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
5. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12

The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
3. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
4. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
5. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50

His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
2. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
3. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
4. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13

This is precisely why I stated that we should go over each one at a time. we get an entire list of these and end up losing the original intent and attacking strawmen in the end. Since you were kind enough to post a list I will start with the top and work our way down so that we can discuss each. Your NT references will be ignored as they are not part of the Hebrew Bible/OT and it would be presumptuous to accept the truth of the NT at this point since you and I only share the Hebrew Bible/OT as being true.


1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15

So lets talk about the first reference on your list. I have a couple of questions regarding this:

Can you show me where it says in the text of the Hebrew Bible/OT that this is explicitly about the messiah and the messiah will do this?

If yes, Please provide the clear and direct reference

If no, How are you arriving at the conclusion that this is about the Messiah? What are your standards of proof?

Shalom,

Avraham Ibn Ezra

[Divine Insight]

Thank you for your reply. From what I can tell you seem to exhibit the signs of being either agnostic or an Atheist in terms of how you approach the Bible. I'm not judging and in fact I think it adds to the perspective of the discussion. I honestly think your position and how you believe about the text is completely Rational based on the text and a certain POV which would be that you are most convinced by the claims and arguments of Agnosticism or Atheism, which is completely rational.

With respect to the Hebrew Bible I am 100% atheist. I am absolutely certain beyond any reasonable doubt that the God described in the OT cannot possibly exist as described in the Bible.

On the more generic concept of "God" I remain agnostic and I am open to the idea that some sort of "mystical God" could potentially exist, although to be honest, I must confess that even that requires extreme faith in the fact of overwhelming secular evidence that this human desire for something more to life is most likely unrealistic.

Concerning what convinced me, you are totally wrong that I have been convinced by claims and arguments of Agnosticism and Atheism. On the contrary, it was my own personal study of the Bible (specifically the Old Testament) that convinced me that it cannot possibly be true, as written. Even as metaphors or parables. Even taken in an extremely non-literal way, it still makes no rational sense, IMHO. The reason being that even taken non-literally the God that it describes would need to be extremely unintelligent, inconsistent, and self-contradictory.

Thank you for adding to the discussion. However, lets leave the NT references out since it really isn't part of the discussion. I, as an Orthodox Jew, would not accept that as a proof of an argument.

That's fine. But from a practical point of view why would anyone even bother with Orthodox Judaism? Especially in terms of any "Promised Messiah"?

Do the Orthodox Jews believe that they can point to any promised messiah? If so, please do so. If not, then why would they still be looking for a messiah today? Don't you think these ancient prophecies have failed for long enough?

How long do superstitious rumors need to fail before they are no longer worthy of consideration?

Are you actually expecting a messiah to show up yet? And if so, could you outline the prophesies that you believe might come true some day?

On the topic of the Biblical Messiah, it would seem to me that the Christians are the only ones who even bothered to claim that some Messiah even showed up at all. This is why any and all conversations along these lines are ultimately going to lead to the feet of Jesus (as the Christians would proclaim).

Either Jesus was this promised messiah, or these ancient fables aren't even worth considering anymore.

And, as you have already heard from me, I don't buy into the New Testament either.

So I'm convinced that the whole shebang has no more merit than Greek Mythology. It's just Hebrew Mythology. Pure and simple.

I don't see any "prophesy" in the Bible anywhere that is convincing or compelling about anything. In fact, we already know that many of it's claim never were true. So we already have strong evidence that it's nothing more than a collection of superstitious rumors and false prophesies.

[YahDough]

There are a significant number of OT Prophesies made about Messiah Jesus that were fulfilled. I know you wanted to take one at a time but I have listed several. Feel free to comment on them. Thanks

Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34

Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled

1. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
2. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
3. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
4. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
5. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6

Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
2. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
3. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
4. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
5. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12

The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
3. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
4. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
5. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50

His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled

1. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
2. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
3. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
4. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13

This is precisely why I stated that we should go over each one at a time. we get an entire list of these and end up losing the original intent and attacking strawmen in the end. Since you were kind enough to post a list I will start with the top and work our way down so that we can discuss each. Your NT references will be ignored as they are not part of the Hebrew Bible/OT and it would be presumptuous to accept the truth of the NT at this point since you and I only share the Hebrew Bible/OT as being true.


1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15

So lets talk about the first reference on your list. I have a couple of questions regarding this:
Shalom,

Avraham Ibn Ezra

Can you show me where it says in the text of the Hebrew Bible/OT that this is explicitly about the messiah and the messiah will do this?

No. As in all the references in the O.T. about Jesus. I believe them through the knowledge given to me by God via the Holy Spirit.

How are you arriving at the conclusion that this is about the Messiah?

Through confidence in the Son of God, and Holy Spirit teaching.

What are your standards of proof?

Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost Spirit of truth.

[Divine Insight]

@Avraham Ibn Ezra

I think you will quickly discover that most Christians have the same perspective as YahDough. They start with Jesus and work backwards from there.

Moreover, the vast majority of Christians aren't the slightest bit interested in supporting the OT without Jesus. Take Jesus out of the picture and the number of Christians who would convert to Judaism and sit around waiting for a new messiah that never came yet are going to be extremely rare. Christians already have grave difficulty with the Old Testament and often use Jesus as an excuse to dismiss the immoralities found in the Old Testament.

So from a very practical point of view I doubt that there exist too many people who would be interested in a Judaism that is still waiting for a messiah to come for the very first time.

I'm not sure where the Muslims stand on this issue. I never hear any Muslims speaking about any promised messiah in any case. My guess is that the Muslims don't believe in any such prophesies. They probably removed any mention of any promised messiah when they wrote the Qur'an? I really don't know what their position is on this. It might be interesting to know. Just out of curiosity.