Omnipotence paradox

[Willum]

In Jerusalem circa 0 BC an interesting tableau of events took place where God showed his face in his son, and placed his mettle here on Earth.

With freewill, Pilate, Jews, apostles, etc., could have taken any number of infinite routes that did not allow the "Greatest Story Every Told," to happen.

In this tableau free will was placed on equal footing with Omnipotence and anything could have happened, and not necessarily in-line with divine will.

How do we know it did?
Actually this is subject for something more than a debate. As flawed men were making decisions in the plans of the almighty, and the results regardless were recorded.

Are there other more plausible "what if's"

Should Jesus have been a warrior messiah, but God did not count on him being betrayed by the Sadducee/Pharsee rule?

etc..

[ecco]

[Replying to post 19 by ecco]

Re: Moses so God may have had manipulated Moses, meeting him when he was not fatigued, perhaps manifesting a reminder of something good someone had done for him, etc., so that Moses would definitely not be apathetic? Or he just knew ahead of time?

As I have stated, He knew before He created heaven and earth. No manipualation involved. None.

Again, something something Omnipotent KNOWS is bereft of freewill.

Again, regardless of your human logic...

• If you posit an omni-all god, then godly knowledge has no impact on Free Will.
  If you posit an omni-all god, then Free Will has no impact on godly knowledge.

Well, there is a tradespace of meaning.
If you don't think the implications of man's free will on divine plans has any meaning, nothing is keeping you here.

So, you post a thread, but want only discussion that supports your point of view.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 21 by ecco]

No, absolutely not.
I want to discuss this rather novel niche, the intersection of free will vice omnipotence.

I don't have a point of view about it. That's why I posted it.
You keep saying "He knew," but "knowing" as a corollary of Omnipotence voids freewill. If necessary to explore the topic, let's ASSUME freewill, and the corollaries of free decisions and free actions.

We are after all talking about a being who, that if, thoughts and reality aren't ONE, then they can be.

Perhaps I can help you out: The title is Omnipotence PARADOX, which means we are confronting two seemingly illogical stances that none-the-less stand to reason.

Free-will, freedom of choice, etc., must conflict with omnipotence and omniscience in a way the is consistent with observation.

Freewill necessitates randomness that must somehow fold into the reality of an all-powerful being. If you want to DEFINE it that it doesn't, there is nothing to discuss, check out another topic.

If you do not wish to discuss this interesting over-lap, and want to keep answering with something that ignores freewill, well I have heard you, and understood the omnipotence/omniscience stances you've made from the beginning. If that is all you have to contribute to the discussion, I thank you sincerely for your input.

How about instead of going bigger, we go smaller. With your freewill and mine, what differences do we make everyday to God's will?

I just picked Jesus and Moses because these are blatant places where God's will may have been usurped by the will of a single individual.

So whatever is easiest to forward the discussion

[ecco]

[Replying to post 22 by Willum]

Willum

I want to discuss this rather novel niche, the intersection of free will vice omnipotence. 
Perhaps I can help you out: The title is Omnipotence PARADOX, which means we are confronting two seemingly illogical stances that none-the-less stand to reason.

If you accept Omniscience AND Free Will then there is indeed a paradox.
If you do not accept Omniscience, there is no intersection nor is there a paradox.

So far you have continually denied Omniscience:

• Logic can not be beyond man, or even physical rules. Logic can always be reduced to 1's and 0's-. 
  Again, something something Omnipotent KNOWS is bereft of freewill.

Therefore there is no intersection and no paradox.



Willum

Free-will, freedom of choice, etc., must conflict with omnipotence and omniscience in a way the is consistent with observation.

Our observations of the universe lead to contradictions between our observations.

• Quantum Mechanics (QM) and relativity are both 100% accurate, so far as we have been able to measure (and our measurements are really, really good).  The incompatibility shows up when both QM effects and relativistic effects are large enough to be detected and then disagree.

It is understandable that our observations of a god would also lead to contradictions in our observations. However, if you posit an omni-all god then you must accept that that god has omni-all capabilities. So far you have denied the capabilities of the very god you have defined.

[ttruscott]

...

As I have stated, He knew before He created heaven and earth. No manipualation involved. None.

...

Have you considered that your definition of omniscience as knowing all from eternity past to eternity future implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell but HE created them anyway, just to go to hell? Does this not impinge upon HIS claim to be loving and holy?

Does it matter that this pagan Greek definition that leads inevitably into blasphemy is contrary to the Biblical definition of HIS being all knowing, Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 23 by ecco]

Hi ecco, the title of this topic is indeed "... Paradox." There is indeed a paradox. If you don't want to attempt to make sense of it, much in the way one tries to rectify Relativity with Quantum, there are other topics.

But just as we would learn great amounts if we could understand how Relativity and QM interface, we might also gain knowledge from this topic's pretty problem.

The difference being, we may not need to spend a lifetime studying math to resolve this topic.

[ecco]

As I have stated, He knew before He created heaven and earth. No manipualation involved. None.

Have you considered that your definition of omniscience as knowing all from eternity past to eternity future implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell but HE created them anyway, just to go to hell?

"My" definition is the commonly accepted definition:

Code: Select all

omniscient
      adjective om·ni·scient \-shənt\
: knowing everything : having unlimited understanding or knowledge
1:  having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2:  possessed of universal or complete knowledge

Some religious "scholars" and philosophers water it down to avoid conflicts with their own viewpoint and/or sensibilities (see below).

I never stated or implied that he created them "just to go to hell". Knowing beforehand who will go to hell and creating them just to go to hell are two entirely different things.

Does this not impinge upon HIS claim to be loving and holy?

Would someone who knows the bible better than I do be good enough to post scripture where god (either the OT father or the NT son) makes this claim for himself.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience

There is a distinction between:
inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

Some modern Christian theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures. John Calvin, among other theologians of the 16th century, comfortable with the definition of God as being omniscient in the total sense, in order for worthy beings' abilities to choose freely, embraced the doctrine of predestination.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 23 by ecco]

The biggest obstacle in this progression is resolvable by this:

God is Omniscient/Omnipotent but willfully relaxes that constraint.

Just use this as an assumption that removes the tired old discussions to perhaps make headway on the dilemma between the actions freewill and All-will.

[ecco]

[Replying to post 23 by ecco]

The biggest obstacle in this progression is resolvable by this:

God is Omniscient/Omnipotent but willfully relaxes that constraint.

I have absolutely no idea WTH that is supposed to mean.

Just use this as an assumption that removes the tired old discussions to perhaps make headway on the dilemma between the actions freewill and All-will.

And at this point I really don't care. You can continue your "debate" with your beliefs "that god is omipotent but he really isn't omnipotent" without me.