Limits to religious liberty?

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WinePusher
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Limits to religious liberty?

Post #1

Post by WinePusher »

dianaiad wrote:My problem comes in when they (gay couple) sue me because I refuse to participate in their religious ceremony....

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has the right to make someone else violate his or her religious beliefs in order to have a wedding.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... &start=190

The argument here is that a business cannot be compelled to participate in a gay wedding or service gay people due to the right of freedom of association and the right of religious liberty. I used to buy this argument, and I still do to a certain extent, but then I asked myself how this argument would hold up if it were applied to black people.

Since the 1964 civil rights act it has been illegal for a business to refuse service to anyone based on race, ethnicity, religion, etc. So it would be illegal for a business owner to refuse to provide wedding cakes for an interracial marriage, EVEN IF the business owners religious beliefs condemned interracial marriages.

And it wouldn't only be illegal, it would be completely heinous for a business to deny service to a couple based purely on their race. So, how is it not completely heinous for a business to deny service to a couple based purely on their sex/gender/sexual orientation? The same arguments against gay marriage were once used against interracial marriage. These arguments held no merit then and they hold no merit now.

Questions:

1) For those who are against gay marriage: Suppose a racist business owner hated black people and refused to service them based on a religious belief. Do you support this?

2) For those who are for gay marriage: Do you recognize that some churches and businesses have a moral objection to gay marriage? Shouldn't their beliefs be respected and shouldn't they have the right to refuse to service gay couples and provide cakes for gay weddings?

enviousintheeverafter
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Post #51

Post by enviousintheeverafter »

[Replying to post 47 by Hatuey]

You can't have it both ways. The freedom of business owners and freedom of the general public conflict in this case. Being in favor of freedom simpliciter is tantamount to not taking a position on the issue at all. Necessarily, being opposed to equal protection and anti-discrimination protections is to prefer the freedom of the business owner over the general public, to be in favor of non-discrimination is to prefer to the freedom of the general public over the business owner.

And of course, this bit about "the government telling you what to do with your stuff" is highly misleading, since its not like the government is going to anyone's home and telling them what they have to do with their television and sofa. If you want to own/run a public business, you are entering into the public/shared domain of political economy, which, public and shared as it is, is governed by (governmental) protections and legislations. You want to play the game, you have to follow the rules. No one is forcing anyone to enter the public financial/economic enterprise, but if you choose to do so, its unreasonable to expect to have some absolute freedom from the applicable rules ensuring fairness, efficiency, etc. (to which non-discrimination belongs).

enviousintheeverafter
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Post #52

Post by enviousintheeverafter »

[Replying to post 49 by Hatuey]

Alright, I'm done with this discussion, you evidently can't participate without engaging in flaming and personal attacks, despite having just received a moderator warning. Good day to you.

Hatuey
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Post #53

Post by Hatuey »

[Replying to post 51 by enviousintheeverafter]

Obviously I have engaged in hundreds of conversations on this site without flaming....so that's another lie from you. I'm not doing that now, but rather calling you out on lying as you should be called out...for lying. Do you think it is right and good for your opponent to lie and get away with it? How would you respond to continual lies about your words? You'd agree with that person lying about your ideas and words? I doubt it.

If you DO THE RIGHT THING and admit to lying for horrible purposes, and discuss the issue fairly, you will see that I do indeed discuss issues fairly on the points...as we move forward. Lying and then dropping out is beneath you, from what I've learned about you up until today.
Last edited by Hatuey on Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hatuey
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Post #54

Post by Hatuey »

[Replying to post 51 by enviousintheeverafter]

Let's test the lie.

NO ONE has the right to buy unless the business owner wishes to sell to them. (Does that cover every single person? Why yes it does cover everyone. Sounds fair)

EVERY BUSINESS OWNER has the right to refuse service to whomever he wishes. (Does that cover every single business owner like laws for women only or doctors only or ex convicts only? Why yes it does cover the entire class like women, doctors, and ex cons. Sounds fair.)

So YES, it was a blatant lie to say some had freedoms denied to others. Business owners all have the same right (can deny service to whomever they wish). . Customers all have the same footing. (Only can purchase by permission of the owner)

Elijah John
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Post #55

Post by Elijah John »

Hatuey wrote: [Replying to post 45 by enviousintheeverafter]

I've been extremely clear on this issue, and you are acting shitty to claim otherwise, you liar.

I am saying that ALL business owners have the right to sell or not sell to WHOMEVER they choose. It's their product they bought with their money for their business. It's simple. You can frame it any way you want to, but my model is fair to those who have purchased storefront and product and have the business risk. Customers don't have any risk or rights when it comes to SOMONE ELSES property and who they sell to.


Now go lie some more, liar. It'll make you feel better, I guess.
:warning: Moderator Final Warning

You've incurred several well earned reports against you in the space of a few hours. Collectively they warrant at least a Final Warning. You can consider this a "time out" chance to cool down...it would be a shame to blow it all on temper..Hope you will settle down and reconsider your approach. In the meantime, I have locked this thread.

Please review the Rules.


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My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Paprika
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Post #56

Post by Paprika »

Hatuey wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Paprika]

Yep. Businesses ought to be able to refuse service or refuse to hire blacks or whites Asians or Christians or Muslims or scientologists or heterosexuals or homosexuals or pansexuals. The business should be able to choose freely.
:o Are we actually in agreement on something?
As for corporations being legally defined as a person and given a person's rights...: how fricking retarded?!?! That's the whole point of being called a corporation...it's NOT an individual person.
Legal personhood, as I've commented in [what has become] the abortion thread is merely a way to justify differential treatment.

So this is par for the course.

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Post #57

Post by Paprika »

enviousintheeverafter wrote:
Hatuey wrote: [Replying to post 21 by Paprika]

Yep. Businesses ought to be able to refuse service or refuse to hire blacks or whites Asians or Christians or Muslims or scientologists or heterosexuals or homosexuals or pansexuals. The business should be able to choose freely.
So things like Civil rights, equal protection, non-discrimination and all that are wrong (despite the many harms/inequalities/untenable situations which their establishment eliminated/minimized).
Precisely so because of all the harms, inequalities and untenable situations that their establishment has created.
Hmm. Scary. Thank goodness you're not in charge, eh?
Do not give in to fear, old chap.

enviousintheeverafter
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Post #58

Post by enviousintheeverafter »

Paprika wrote: Precisely so because of all the harms, inequalities and untenable situations that their establishment has created.
(buh-dum-cshh!)

Paprika
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Post #59

Post by Paprika »

Hatuey wrote: [Replying to post 28 by enviousintheeverafter]

Correct. A black business owner should not be forced to sell HIS STUFF to the Klan if he wishes to not sell HIS STUFF that HE BOUGHT to the people who consider him an animal.

Why do you want to force a black business man to sell HIS items in HIS store to a Klansman?
Because forced labour is an acceptable means to achieve Égalité.

Paprika
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Post #60

Post by Paprika »

enviousintheeverafter wrote:
Paprika wrote: Precisely so because of all the harms, inequalities and untenable situations that their establishment has created.
(buh-dum-cshh!)
Should I interpret this to mean that you have nothing meaningful to say?

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