Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[Clownboat]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

I have discussed this in the past (sometimes with you). I took some time to consider the arguments and there really does exist support for the Christian viewpoint (at least in some general concepts). However, it is very difficult to give you the information that you need to get past possible bias, because it is all so involved. There is hardly room in this format to deal with all the misconceptions that block the understanding of the Christ.

I wonder though, if someone did give you evidence, would you ignore it? What would you accept as evidence? I suspect that you might have a special requirement that cannot be met in any case, but who knows?

Your question covers a lot of territory and there is no quick answer. However, I have spent the last two years collecting all my thoughts on this particular problem.
I have written it all down in the book: The Science Behind the Christ.

I think this was an important thing to do, as I have also found myself in many oral arguments about this topic and it is never possible to give my opponents all the information needed to actually support the final claim.

So now I just say.....read the book. It saves me a lot of time.

I acknowledge that you seem to have no evidence to present.
"Read this book" of course does not qualify as evidence.

I also reject your blame at this time (all the misconceptions that block the understanding of the Christ).

Is it not a bit shallow to blame us for not seeing something, and then your only justification is 'read a book'?

[earendil]

I acknowledge that you seem to have no evidence to present.
"Read this book" of course does not qualify as evidence.

I also reject your blame at this time (all the misconceptions that block the understanding of the Christ).

Is it not a bit shallow to blame us for not seeing something, and then your only justification is 'read a book'?

If the book references the evidence then yes, it does qualify as evidence, or at least the path to the evidence. It is called a citation and it is used in all scientific papers to support a claim.

In order to refute the citation you would have to read it and explain why it is incorrect.

Actually I could have been more specific, but I gave what the OP deserved as it begged the question from the beginning and asked a question that was too general to really be use in a structured debate.

The OP simply stated that there was no evidence for Christianity as if it were fact, but that is the purpose of the discussion. This is called a fallacy of logic, typically called "begging the question".

It is like, if I walked up to a complete stranger and asked "Why do you beat your wife". The assumptions have made the question useless (and typically an insult as it is here).

[Zzyzx]

.

Is it not a bit shallow to blame us for not seeing something, and then your only justification is 'read a book'?

If the book references the evidence then yes, it does qualify as evidence, or at least the path to the evidence. It is called a citation and it is used in all scientific papers to support a claim.

Citation of one's own writing is NOT "used in all scientific papers to support a claim" – and self-citation is not highly regarded in reasoned debate or discussion. "Read my book" is a poor substitute for actual debate.

In order to refute the citation you would have to read it and explain why it is incorrect.

Correction: In debate one presents their position and does not demand "prove me wrong".

Actually I could have been more specific, but I gave what the OP deserved as it begged the question from the beginning and asked a question that was too general to really be use in a structured debate.

Here are six very specific questions from the OP:

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human?

Humans possess a soul?

An afterlife exists?

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred?

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described?

God intercedes in human affairs or life events?

You are cordially invited to attempt to address them and perhaps show readers the verifiable evidence. Apologist's failure or refusal to do so sends a message that the OP is intended to convey.

[Clownboat]

I acknowledge that you seem to have no evidence to present.
"Read this book" of course does not qualify as evidence.

I also reject your blame at this time (all the misconceptions that block the understanding of the Christ).

Is it not a bit shallow to blame us for not seeing something, and then your only justification is 'read a book'?

If the book references the evidence then yes, it does qualify as evidence, or at least the path to the evidence. It is called a citation and it is used in all scientific papers to support a claim.

A book referencing evidence does not make the said book become evidence itself.

In order to refute the citation you would have to read it and explain why it is incorrect.

I am not on this online debate site to debate books. If there is something in the book that you understand and can articulate, then do so and we can discuss it.

Actually I could have been more specific, but I gave what the OP deserved as it begged the question from the beginning and asked a question that was too general to really be use in a structured debate.

This comes across as nothing more than an excuse for why you cannot supply verifiable evidence for the things listed in the OP. If there is evidence, present it.

The OP simply stated that there was no evidence for Christianity as if it were fact, but that is the purpose of the discussion. This is called a fallacy of logic, typically called "begging the question".

Correction, the OP asks: What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate....

It is like, if I walked up to a complete stranger and asked "Why do you beat your wife". The assumptions have made the question useless (and typically an insult as it is here).

Incorrect. It is actually like asking for verifiable evidence that a stranger is beating their wife.

If there was verifiable evidence that someone was beating their wife, it could be presented.
If there was verifiable evidence for the claims about Christianity in the OP, it could be presented, but it seems that you cannot present it.

Will you present any verifiable evidence?

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Why no straight answers?

Circular logic makes it hard to think straight.

That's gotta be at least one reason right there.

[earendil]

I acknowledge that you seem to have no evidence to present.
"Read this book" of course does not qualify as evidence.

I also reject your blame at this time (all the misconceptions that block the understanding of the Christ).

Is it not a bit shallow to blame us for not seeing something, and then your only justification is 'read a book'?

If the book references the evidence then yes, it does qualify as evidence, or at least the path to the evidence. It is called a citation and it is used in all scientific papers to support a claim.

A book referencing evidence does not make the said book become evidence itself.

In order to refute the citation you would have to read it and explain why it is incorrect.

I am not on this online debate site to debate books. If there is something in the book that you understand and can articulate, then do so and we can discuss it.

You really do not understand what is required here. If you claimed that it was impossible to measure the exact area under a curve, how would I explain it to you in the format of this forum. You would need to take a class on calculus to understand that one can indeed measure the exact area under a curve (if the curve is fully defined by some equation). And I am not going to type out the contents of a calculus textbook into this post.

Yes this is how much information you need in relation to evidence of Christianity and it is also how much you are wanting on the topic.

xxxyz might complain that his questions were specific, but they are not. They are general and encompass an entire science in its own right.

Many want some simple answers here, but they are not simple answers. If you are truly interested in evidence relating to Christianity would you not wish to investigate even beyond the confines of this forum (if need be)?

Or are you here for a different reason?

[Zzyzx]

.

You really do not understand what is required here. If you claimed that it was impossible to measure the exact area under a curve, how would I explain it to you in the format of this forum. You would need to take a class on calculus to understand that one can indeed measure the exact area under a curve (if the curve is fully defined by some equation). And I am not going to type out the contents of a calculus textbook into this post.

This is merely an excuse for failing to substantiate one's argument. It would not be necessary to retype the contents of a calculus textbook to present a compelling argument that calculation of area under a curve is possible.

For instance, some of these debates involve advanced concepts of Earth science, an area I have studied and taught. It would be a poor argument (and unconvincing to readers) to say "read a textbook". Instead, I can present enough information to demonstrate the concept.

If I couldn't explain those ideas in a form at least somewhat understandable to non-scientific people, my arguments would be weak. Excuses would not suffice.

Yes this is how much information you need in relation to evidence of Christianity and it is also how much you are wanting on the topic.

It is a major blunder to assume that Non-Christians lack information about Christianity. Observe that many who debate here spent decades as "true believers" before realizing that the tales and claims are unconvincing.

xxxyz might complain that his questions were specific, but they are not. They are general and encompass an entire science in its own right.

How much more specific can it be to ask for evidence to support a claim?

Many want some simple answers here, but they are not simple answers.

Okay. Present the complex answers. Readers may be interested. Excuses don't count.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Hello Zzy2x,

You said,

“After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs – including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)�

Jesus was anything more than human? None
Humans possess a soul? None
An afterlife exists? None
Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None
Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described?None
God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None
Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None


My answers:

Although defenders are often helpful, is dependence on such the only way to arrive at the answers you need about the Christian faith? Are you depending on a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism or on a trusted spokesman for truth for the answers you want? The promise, “seek and ye shall find� is written in scripture for us. There much overwhelming evidence around us to guide us to the Biblical truth we Christians believe.

Before proceeding to answer your questions, may I also state that our primary source of needed knowledge is from the mouth of trusted sovereignty. Sovereignty may also send others to relay what’s spoken. The captain of a ship is sufficiently familiar with his ship, its mission, and dangers it may face to have the authority to give anyone aboard his ship paramount, non-negotiable instructions if necessary. The hearer’s responsibility is to trust and obey once he receives the message. Anyone that doesn’t trust the captain need not be on his ship.

There are times in life when there’s no time to verify a speaker or the critical word passed to the hearer. What then should you and I do with the word of God given us? Proof of His authority is all around us if we care to notice.


Now for the answers:

1. As for No. 1, the primary proof that Jesus is more than a mere man is His death and resurrection. The most prominent visible evidence is the empty tomb. More evidence is the miraculously changed life of individuals that trust and accept Him. I can say much more.

2. As for no.2, the sense of accountability of one toward the other manifested by conscience is one piece of evidence. Outward evidence is the sense of peace when an individual chooses to do right and of guilt and shame when the individual chooses wrong. But this is an example of spiritually discerned truth that carnality often ignores.

3. As for #3, I learned of the after-life from the Bible that my mother read to me. The most potent verification of the after-life came during the time of my conversion when I trusted God to save me. Other believers testify the same. Converted believers taste eternal life now. But do you believe the personal testimonies including the one I just gave?

4. As for #4, one reason there appears to be no evidence for Noah’s flood to so many is that its wide-spread evidence (Grand Canyon is one case) is falsely attributed to other causes such as millions of years evolution. Consequences of the Mount St. Helens eruption debunked much of the millions of years theory.

5. All miracles of the Bible are not evident. How do we know that Peter walked on the water but by the fact that we trust those that told us? As for Biblical prophecy, chance probability for all of it being fulfilled is one in 10 with a prohibitively high exponent. But the fact that all the prophecy has been fulfilled so far may be considered as a miracle.

People are miraculously healed of problems doctors couldn’t help. Miracles are much more abundant in places like Africa among people that never knew the gospel and heard it for the very first time.

6. As for no.6, do you mean intervention? Evidence for God’s intervention occurs in individual lives as well as all around us. But is it always acknowledged? Is there a will to acknowledge? The fact that I lived through situations that could have been deadly keeps me aware that God intervened to keep me through those times and I thank Him.

God intervenes to convict when the gospel is preached.

History is full of cases of God’s intervention in human affairs. Let me mention George Washington as a single example. A singular (among many) miracle that happened in his life was that during a battle, two horses were shot from under him and that he found four bullet holes in his clothes even though unharmed. There are many other examples past and present—even in my life.

7. The Bible itself is its own evidence of God’s inspiration. For example, consider the unity of its message throughout the collection of 66 books written during widely spaced time periods and locations. Consider the consistent fulfilling of prophesies contained within. Also consider how the Bible is so special that the Jews recopied it with extreme care to accurately preserve it prior to the time of the printing press.


To the individual unfamiliar with the Bible, his main source of necessary knowledge are the preacher, the personal witness, and the Bible itself. There are many other ways. The Bible that contains the word of Sovereign God has repeatedly proven itself trustworthy. The hearer’s only job is to believe and obey so that it will prove itself.

Do you trust? Whose spoken word do you count as true and settled? Are you willing to allow God to prove Himself on His terms?

Take care,
Earl

[H.sapiens]

...

Now for the answers:

1. As for No. 1, the primary proof that Jesus is more than a mere man is His death and resurrection. The most prominent visible evidence is the empty tomb. More evidence is the miraculously changed life of individuals that trust and accept Him. I can say much more.

Sorry, there is no actual evidence that there was a resurrection, death is certain, but we can't even be certain that there was a Jesus to fulfill that function.

2. As for no.2, the sense of accountability of one toward the other manifested by conscience is one piece of evidence. Outward evidence is the sense of peace when an individual chooses to do right and of guilt and shame when the individual chooses wrong. But this is an example of spiritually discerned truth that carnality often ignores.

Sorry, there is no actual evidence that a soul is linked to a conscience. Evolution, selfish genes and altruism assembled in to an Evolutionarily stable strategy

3. As for #3, I learned of the after-life from the Bible that my mother read to me. The most potent verification of the after-life came during the time of my conversion when I trusted God to save me. Other believers testify the same. Converted believers taste eternal life now. But do you believe the personal testimonies including the one I just gave?

No I do not, there is no evidence that what you describe is not imagination or delusion.

4. As for #4, one reason there appears to be no evidence for Noah’s flood to so many is that its wide-spread evidence (Grand Canyon is one case) is falsely attributed to other causes such as millions of years evolution. Consequences of the Mount St. Helens eruption debunked much of the millions of years theory.

All of earth science is wrong, but you're right? I'm hard pressed to credit that.

5. All miracles of the Bible are not evident. How do we know that Peter walked on the water but by the fact that we trust those that told us? As for Biblical prophecy, chance probability for all of it being fulfilled is one in 10 with a prohibitively high exponent. But the fact that all the prophecy has been fulfilled so far may be considered as a miracle.

People are miraculously healed of problems doctors couldn’t help. Miracles are much more abundant in places like Africa among people that never knew the gospel and heard it for the very first time.

Those are more medical failures than religious miracles. Go pray for an amputee, even one who just lost a part of a finger. When it regrows ... then will talk.

6. As for no.6, do you mean intervention? Evidence for God’s intervention occurs in individual lives as well as all around us. But is it always acknowledged? Is there a will to acknowledge? The fact that I lived through situations that could have been deadly keeps me aware that God intervened to keep me through those times and I thank Him.

I've lived through a wide assortment of threats the details of which I can regale you of at another time via PM if you are really interested. God did not intervene on my behalf, I never prayed for help, some problems I resolved by skill and ability, some with a bit if luck ... if feel a need to say my luck is was due to a god, feel free, but I don't believe that for a millisecond, like McGuyver, I put way more trust in my Swiss Army Knife.

God intervenes to convict when the gospel is preached.

I have no idea of what that means.

History is full of cases of God’s intervention in human affairs. Let me mention George Washington as a single example. A singular (among many) miracle that happened in his life was that during a battle, two horses were shot from under him and that he found four bullet holes in his clothes even though unharmed. There are many other examples past and present—even in my life.

I had two jeeps shot up from underneath me during the Southeast Asian Friendship Games ... in less that 24 hours. There were bulletholes everywhere a DShK 12.7 mm leaves lots of big holes, I did not get a scratch, though I broke my ankle on a curb in the city the next day. No god, no big deal, just some good luck. I never realized that GW and I had so much in common ... but then:

"Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice."

Note: Asa Green was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was chaplain to congress during Washington's administration.

7. The Bible itself is its own evidence of God’s inspiration. For example, consider the unity of its message throughout the collection of 66 books written during widely spaced time periods and locations. Consider the consistent fulfilling of prophesies contained within. Also consider how the Bible is so special that the Jews recopied it with extreme care to accurately preserve it prior to the time of the printing press.

Never heard tell of a single miracle that was clear and demonstrable ... how 'bout you go pray for an amputee and get back to me?

To the individual unfamiliar with the Bible, his main source of necessary knowledge are the preacher, the personal witness, and the Bible itself. There are many other ways. The Bible that contains the word of Sovereign God has repeatedly proven itself trustworthy. The hearer’s only job is to believe and obey so that it will prove itself.

I'm mighty familiar with the bible and I rather take exception to your pretense (as I see it) that it contains anything more than the words of men or that it has ever been useful to prove anything more than might be expected of an historical novel like, say, Homer, which was better written and more consistent.

Do you trust? Whose spoken word do you count as true and settled? Are you willing to allow God to prove Himself on His terms?

Take care,
Earl

I'll wait on that amputee.

'night Earl ...

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 338 by Erexsaur]

Thank you for presenting a religionist point of view.

1. As for No. 1, the primary proof that Jesus is more than a mere man is His death and resurrection.

Agreed, the "proof" offered is a story told by promoters of the cause

The most prominent visible evidence is the empty tomb.

Thousands of empty tombs worldwide prove what? That the previous occupants were supernatural and arose from the dead?

More evidence is the miraculously changed life of individuals that trust and accept Him. I can say much more.

Lives are "miraculously changed" through all sorts of experiences. So what?

2. As for no.2, the sense of accountability of one toward the other manifested by conscience is one piece of evidence. Outward evidence is the sense of peace when an individual chooses to do right and of guilt and shame when the individual chooses wrong. But this is an example of spiritually discerned truth that carnality often ignores.

That may "prove" that it is often advantageous for humans to cooperate with one another.

3. As for #3, I learned of the after-life from the Bible that my mother read to me.

Most apparently learn about such things during childhood – before judgment and discernment develop during maturation.

The most potent verification of the after-life came during the time of my conversion when I trusted God to save me. Other believers testify the same.

Testimonials are not "proof" of anything other than someone's opinion. Do you believe testimonials of those who point away from religion or Christianity?

Converted believers taste eternal life now.

Kindly verify this claim.

But do you believe the personal testimonies including the one I just gave?

I accept that you believe; however, what others believe is of no significance to me.

4. As for #4, one reason there appears to be no evidence for Noah’s flood to so many is that its wide-spread evidence (Grand Canyon is one case) is falsely attributed to other causes such as millions of years evolution.

I have studied the Grand Canyon in great detail and have taught its geology / materials / processes at university level. I have also hiked to the bottom and back. Claims that it was produced by "The Flood" make no sense at all.

Present evidence that the Grand Canyon resulted from The Flood and I will present evidence that it is a product of common Earth processes. Readers can decide which makes more sense.

Consequences of the Mount St. Helens eruption debunked much of the millions of years theory.

Kindly explain exactly how a volcanic event "debunked much of the millions of years theory. I have also studied Mt. St. Helens and visited the area in 1980.

5. All miracles of the Bible are not evident. How do we know that Peter walked on the water but by the fact that we trust those that told us?

Exactly. "Take my word for it (or his or this book)" is the "proof" offered.

As for Biblical prophecy, chance probability for all of it being fulfilled is one in 10 with a prohibitively high exponent. But the fact that all the prophecy has been fulfilled so far may be considered as a miracle.

Since the supposed "prophesies" were recorded AFTER the events that isn't proof of anything other than creative storytelling.

People are miraculously healed of problems doctors couldn’t help.

Therefore, when Believers are seriously ill or injured they can count on "miracles" rather than seeking medical care. Right?

Miracles are much more abundant in places like Africa among people that never knew the gospel and heard it for the very first time.

"Miracles" are abundant where / when people do not understand actual cause-and-effect relationships.

6. As for no.6, do you mean intervention? Evidence for God’s intervention occurs in individual lives as well as all around us. But is it always acknowledged? Is there a will to acknowledge? The fact that I lived through situations that could have been deadly keeps me aware that God intervened to keep me through those times and I thank Him.

Many of us have lived through situations that could / should have been deadly. So what? Does that somehow prove supernatural intervention?

God intervenes to convict when the gospel is preached.

????

History is full of cases of God’s intervention in human affairs. Let me mention George Washington as a single example. A singular (among many) miracle that happened in his life was that during a battle, two horses were shot from under him and that he found four bullet holes in his clothes even though unharmed.

Hitler lived through assassination attempts including an explosion in a meeting that killed others. Is that evidence that God intervened to protect him?

There are many other examples past and present—even in my life.

Unusual or improbable events, often called "miracles", happen frequently. So what? Can anyone show that they were supernatural events?

7. The Bible itself is its own evidence of God’s inspiration.

How, exactly, does the Bible show evidence of "God's inspiration?" It is a book written by men with human frailties, complete with mistakes, agendas, contradictions, fanciful tales.

For example, consider the unity of its message throughout the collection of 66 books written during widely spaced time periods and locations.

Is it surprising that company literature sends a message favoring the company? If Buddhist literature sends a unity of message does that confirm that what it says is true and accurate?

Consider the consistent fulfilling of prophesies contained within. Also consider how the Bible is so special that the Jews recopied it with extreme care to accurately preserve it prior to the time of the printing press.

What is the earliest existing copy of the Jewish Bible? From what year does it date?

To the individual unfamiliar with the Bible, his main source of necessary knowledge are the preacher, the personal witness, and the Bible itself.

Are preachers and personal witnesses reliable and accurate sources of information?

There are many other ways. The Bible that contains the word of Sovereign God has repeatedly proven itself trustworthy.

The Bible is the word of the men who wrote it.

The hearer’s only job is to believe and obey so that it will prove itself.

Exactly – just believe and obey what religion promoters say.

Do you trust?

As Ronald Reagan famously said, "Trust but verify"

I will no more take your word for claims than you will take mine in opposing directions. Readers should take NEITHER of us on our word, but should consider information that we present.

Whose spoken word do you count as true and settled?

None. I trust certain long-term, tested, friends to a certain extent; however, I realize that even they can be mistaken or misinformed.

Are you willing to allow God to prove Himself on His terms?

I invite direct personal communication from any of the "gods."