Atheists and Fanatics

[Elijah John]

From the "Age of Reason", by Thomas Paine:

" Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics."

----

I would like to focus on the last line of this quote, that "Christianity ...produces only atheists and fanatics"

Questions for debate:

Have any atheists here become atheists because of the contradictions and outlandish claims of conventional Christianity? Has Christianity, in effect, caused you to reject the belief in God altogether?

and:

Is "fanaticism" (fundamentalisim, literalism) the ONLY valid way to approach/practice Christianity?

[Zzyzx]

.

EJ, is fanaticism defined as fundamentalism/literalism? Or is that your personal definition?

Fanaticism is defined as:

Fanaticism: Excessive, irrational zeal, especially in politics or religion.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fanaticism

Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm. Philosopher George Santayana defines fanaticism as "redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim".[1] The fanatic displays very strict standards and little tolerance for contrary ideas or opinions.

In his book Crazy Talk, Stupid Talk, Neil Postman states that "the key to all fanatical beliefs is that they are self-confirming....(some beliefs are) fanatical not because they are 'false', but because they are expressed in such a way that they can never be shown to be false."[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanaticism

Religious fanaticism is uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm related to one's own, or one's group's, devotion to a religion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism

Do we see examples of religious fanaticism in these threads?

[Elijah John]

.

EJ, is fanaticism defined as fundamentalism/literalism? Or is that your personal definition?

Fanaticism is defined as:

Fanaticism: Excessive, irrational zeal, especially in politics or religion.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fanaticism

Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm. Philosopher George Santayana defines fanaticism as "redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim".[1] The fanatic displays very strict standards and little tolerance for contrary ideas or opinions.

In his book Crazy Talk, Stupid Talk, Neil Postman states that "the key to all fanatical beliefs is that they are self-confirming....(some beliefs are) fanatical not because they are 'false', but because they are expressed in such a way that they can never be shown to be false."[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanaticism

Religious fanaticism is uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm related to one's own, or one's group's, devotion to a religion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism

Do we see examples of religious fanaticism in these threads?

Yes, by those definitions...BUT what is your opinion on Paine's dichotomy? As a non-believer, does your rejection of Theism have anything to do with your rejections of the claims of conventional Christianity? Is that what ever caused you to reject belief in God, or is your skepticism more basic and fundamental than that.

In other words, prosecutors sometimes lose their cases by over charging. Does Christianty lose you by "over promising" or "over claiming"?

Questions addressed to Z here are addressed to all skeptics.

[tam]

Questions, for clarificaiton, do you think "fanaticism" is the only way to approach God, ie Bible literalism?

No, of course not. The only way to approach God is through Christ. He is the One I would test claims in the bible against as well.

Not everything written in the bible is literal though, and I think that is the question you are asking, right?

Do you think folks BECOME atheists because they reject the claims of Christianity, and "throw the baby (belief in God in general) out with the bathwater"?

I think religion may make some atheists (no belief in God), but many anti-theists: those who are against most if not all forms of belief or faith. Usually due to the harm that religion has caused - even though faith and (organized) religion are two separate things. But religion does not teach that, and some still accept certain teachings of their former religion, even though they claim to reject the religion, itself.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 13 by tam]

I notice in may of your posts you are careful to make the distinction between "religion and faith" I read that as a distinction between "religion and relationship") to God or Christ)

Doesn't religion, (ideally) help one to RELATE to God, and in the case of Christianity to have a relationship with Christ?

I know Roman Catholicism emphasizes relationship with Christ through the Word (liturgy of the Word, readings etc.) and the liturgy of the Eucharist, (the body of Christ). And of course, prayers.

But in the final anyalysis, isn't relationship with God based on prayer, which of course, includes faith that God hears and answers?

[tam]

.

EJ, is fanaticism defined as fundamentalism/literalism? Or is that your personal definition?

Fanaticism is defined as:

Fanaticism: Excessive, irrational zeal, especially in politics or religion.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fanaticism

Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm. Philosopher George Santayana defines fanaticism as "redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim".[1] The fanatic displays very strict standards and little tolerance for contrary ideas or opinions.

In his book Crazy Talk, Stupid Talk, Neil Postman states that "the key to all fanatical beliefs is that they are self-confirming....(some beliefs are) fanatical not because they are 'false', but because they are expressed in such a way that they can never be shown to be false."[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanaticism

Religious fanaticism is uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm related to one's own, or one's group's, devotion to a religion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism

Do we see examples of religious fanaticism in these threads?

Yes, thank you for the definition. Fanaticism does not actually determine that something is true or false, and it does not mean taking the bible literally. (unless perhaps one was to take the bible literally despite having no reason to do so)

It is more of a behavior. I'm not sure there would be too much 'live and let live' philosophies among a fanatic. I could be wrong.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[bjs]

I don’t see how anyone could consider this statement accurate given the overwhelming amount of empirical evidence against it.

A quick glance at modern society or history will reveal a great many people whose response to Christianity was neither fanaticism nor atheism.

If we lump “fundamentalism� in with fanatics (a dubious choice to say the least) then we must admit that the majority of Christians have been fundamentalists, at least according to the traditional definition of fundamentalist and even though they have not always used that title. However, fundamentalism itself rose as a response to modernist theology in the late 19th century. The fact that fundamentalism rose as a response to a pre-existing branch of Christian theology is itself sufficient evidence to show that Christianity does not produce only fundamentalists.

The rest of the quote from Paine appears to state little more than his personal dislike of Christianity. Most of it is vague opinion, and what little can be considered objective statements are objectively false. Paine might not believe that Christianity is true, but the sheer number of people who do believe it destroys the possibility that it is “too absurd for belief.� It can be believed, even if Paine and his target audience don’t believe it.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

uestions for debate:

Have any atheists here become atheists because of the contradictions and outlandish claims of conventional Christianity? Has Christianity, in effect, caused you to reject the belief in God altogether?

Pretty much, yes. Atheist regarding the Christian God, as described in the Bible and by Christians. I haven't rejected belief that any god-like being or super intelligence exists. In my suggestible little heart I would think that very cool, indeed, but I can't say I 'know' or 'believe' such a being/process/intelligence exists.

and:

Is "fanaticism" (fundamentalisim, literalism) the ONLY valid way to approach/practice Christianity?

No, but I know someone who does . Never mind. Fundamentalism/literalism is not the only way to approach Christianity, it's easy enough to look around and see this for oneself.

Fundamentalist/literalists may claim 'their way' is the only VALID way, which is just another claim. There are enough Christians a ton more relaxed about it, and just as reassured they are 'doing it right'.

As for Paine's quote, it is hyperbole . . . and then a bit of observation . There are fanatics in all religions, it seems to be the nature of the beast that religion itself encourages extreme beliefs. Then there's human nature, and all the ways we are capable of deluding ourselves. When there are no solid benchmarks, a person will see what they want to, or 'need' to see and genuinely believe their perceptions are THE only valid perception. What's funny is you never hear a religionist claim some other sect has THE truth. The greater the egos and fear/anxiety and impulse to control, the perceptions will be fanatical. Some people are just wired for it, I think.

[Wootah]

The only WAY to approach GOD is through THE VEIL...unless, of course, we claim before GOD that we don't need "one".

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[KenRU]

From the "Age of Reason", by Thomas Paine:

" Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics."

----

I would like to focus on the last line of this quote, that "Christianity ...produces only atheists and fanatics"

Questions for debate:

Have any atheists here become atheists because of the contradictions and outlandish claims of conventional Christianity? Has Christianity, in effect, caused you to reject the belief in God altogether?

The contradictions and outlandish claims were just some of the reasons I left Catholicism.

and:

Is "fanaticism" (fundamentalisim, literalism) the ONLY valid way to approach/practice Christianity?

I submit that strict adherence to the words in any holy book is the only way to accurately practice that faith. If one assumes the book is infallible and divinely inspired, any deviation would bring one farther away from god, correct?

All the best

[Elijah John]

From the "Age of Reason", by Thomas Paine:

" Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics."

----

I would like to focus on the last line of this quote, that "Christianity ...produces only atheists and fanatics"

Questions for debate:

Have any atheists here become atheists because of the contradictions and outlandish claims of conventional Christianity? Has Christianity, in effect, caused you to reject the belief in God altogether?

The contradictions and outlandish claims were just some of the reasons I left Catholicism.

and:

Is "fanaticism" (fundamentalisim, literalism) the ONLY valid way to approach/practice Christianity?

I submit that strict adherence to the words in any holy book is the only way to accurately practice that faith. If one assumes the book is infallible and divinely inspired, any deviation would bring one farther away from god, correct?

All the best

I would not agree. It is possible to take the Bible (and the Creeds of the Church) seriously but not literally.

In fact, a non-literal undestanding (poetic, sometmes) is often the only way to resolve the conflicts and contradictions that I think you and I both see, and still to retain one's faith. Though not always in an orthodox form.