Why the delay in Christ's return?

[2Dbunk]

[Ancient of Years]

[JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION #1: Did Jesus indicate that the first century generation that heard him speak would also witness his return?

ANSWER: Mark 13: 29, 30 records the words of Jesus as being the following “ when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this* generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Clearly Jesus here is refering to a generation that witnesses a series of event ("these things"). He likened "these things" to buds on the trees that indicate that spring is near, saying "Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it [his return] is near, right at the door" (Mt 24:32). So Jesus is not necessarily refering to the first century generation but to the "generation" that witnesses specific events referre to earlier in the discussion. Furthermore, when Jesus said "YOU" he is not necessarily speaking of his first century disciples but all future disciples throughout the ages. [For example, when his disciples on an earlier occassion asked to be taught how to pray Jesus' reply "YOU must pray this way, 'Our Father, who art in Heaven...' clearly again the "YOU" was meant to encompass both those physically present with him in the first century but also future generations of disciples as well]

Question #2: What are some of the "things" that Jesus listed that would indicate His (Jesus) return was near?

Jesus painted a detailed picture of events which included (amongst other things) : International War, widespread famine, great earthquakes, diseases, crime, lack of love [Mt 24:6-8; Mk 13:7,8; Lk 21:9-11] and a worldwide preaching work [Mt 24:14; Mk 13:10]... Jesus likened these features to a womans labour pains that would become increasingly bad until the final events, the return of himself (Christ) in kingdom power. While some would claim that all these events happened in first century Judea, it seems reasonable at the very least to admit that the application of these features (and thus the identification of the generation Jesus was referring to ) is open to interpretation and may very well refer to a generation yet future in time.

[1213]

[JehovahsWitness]

The timeframe is explicit in the part of the quotes you omitted. Here they are again. Some of the people standing there with Jesus will still be alive when the Son of Man returns.

QUESTION: Did Jesus indicate that his first century disciples would see him returned in Kingdom power? (Mark 9:1; Matthew 16: 27, 28; Luke 9: 27)

ANSWER: No, not literally. Firstly, note that Jesus' emphasis was on those present would "see" not necessarily what would happen. For example: one can today "see" Elvis, although he is in fact long dead and a vision of the future could, in theory enable someone to "see" a winning lottery ticket even if it hasn't yet been chosen. In a similar way, Jesus was promising his disciples they would "see" something quite magnificent but not that that magnificent event would literally be happening when they see it.

Indeed, what Jesus promising was that they would "see" him in his kingdom glory, something which they did indeed witnesses in a vision a week later; This event is often referred to as "the transfiguration"

The bible writer Luke, links Jesus' words above with the transfiguration, explaining: "In fact, about eight days after saying these words, he [Jesus] took Peter, John, and James along and climbed up the mountain to pray. And as he was praying, the appearance of his face changed and his clothing became glitteringly white." - Luke 9: 28, 29. So Luke equates the fullfillment of Jesus words to this event.

Further, The Apostle Peter (one of those present) also viewed the transfiguration as a fullfilment of Jesus promise above. Refering to the same event Peter writes: "we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence. For he received from God the Father honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him by the magnificent glory: This is my Son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved. Yes, these words we heard coming from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain" The apostle John may also have alluded to the transfiguration at John 1:14.






RELATED POSTS

Did Jesus indicate that his first century disciples would see him returned in Kingdom power? (Mark 9:1; Matthew 16: 27, 28; Luke 9: 27)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p752172

But did not Jesus say (in Matthew 16 verse 27) that he would "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 24#p836624

What does the bible mean when it says that "every eye will see" Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 50#p874750

What can we say to those that say Christ never returned as promised?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 58#p978058

Will God really literally kill people?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 65#p942565

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GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]


Bible Prophecies fulfilled
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -prophecy/

For more on this topic please go to other posts related to...

LAST DAYS and ...THE SECOND COMING *and ... "DELAYS "DEBUNKED,

*The Return of Christ


Note: Christ "coming" is not to be confused with the "Parousia" or his presence [Mat 24:3][/u]

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Ancient of Years]

[2Dbunk]

tam says that many have not been born yet. Others are predestined to be among the few chosen. And those really good unbelievers will become subjects
of the Kingdom, but not, of course, "priests and kings," all of which we were not taught in Sunday school!

JehovahWitness says ", . . . until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

For I don't desire, brothers, to have you ignorant of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
Romans 11:25

I am no Biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination and I'm indebted to Ancient of Years for his succinct contribution, but aren't the above defenses about as convoluted as yarns can get? To understand all this theobabble one might need a doctorate in ecclesiastical study which I don't think you could even get at Liberty University. Predestination! You mean God already knows who will be chosen, even before I was born? What kind of gameplay is that? Certainly not fair (but a good topic for another thread).

And fundamentalists think evolution and the Scientific Method are complex -- too complex that a "God of the gaps" has to be recognized. If the above rationale isn't a cl_____ F___, I'll eat my "subject of the Kingdom" halo.[/b]

Please pardon my passion
RPS

[tam]

[Replying to post 17 by 2Dbunk]

I'm not sure what is hard to understand. Christ does not return until everyone who is supposed to come to Him has come to Him.

Admittedly, 1213 was much more succinct with his post about the full number of the gentiles coming in. Hence, I 'liked' his post.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

tam says that many have not been born yet. Others are predestined to be among the few chosen. And those really good unbelievers will become subjects
of the Kingdom, but not, of course, "priests and kings," all of which we were not taught in Sunday school!

JehovahWitness says ", . . . until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

For I don't desire, brothers, to have you ignorant of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
Romans 11:25

I am no Biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination and I'm indebted to Ancient of Years for his succinct contribution, but aren't the above defenses about as convoluted as yarns can get? To understand all this theobabble one might need a doctorate in ecclesiastical study which I don't think you could even get at Liberty University. Predestination! You mean God already knows who will be chosen, even before I was born? What kind of gameplay is that? Certainly not fair (but a good topic for another thread).

And fundamentalists think evolution and the Scientific Method are complex -- too complex that a "God of the gaps" has to be recognized. If the above rationale isn't a cl_____ F___, I'll eat my "subject of the Kingdom" halo.[/b]

Please pardon my passion
RPS

You seem to be mixing up your quotes. The above was not me [Jehovah's Witness].


Regards,

JW

[JehovahsWitness]