Why the delay in Christ's return?

[2Dbunk]

As a former Christian it has been my understanding that Jesus Christ is an all-loving, compassionate personal God (or Son of God). And above all the good things attributed to him there is one supreme caveat that hangs like the sword of Damocles over our heads: that Heaven is only achievable to those who believe in him – indeed, those who don’t will be condemned to everlasting fire and brimstone.

Also, the New Testament tells us that Christ’s departure from Earth 2,000 years ago will be short-lived and his return is imminent . . . to take up to Heaven all those who follow Him – that “few will be chosen.�

My question for debate is: Knowing “few will be chosen,� why is there such a delay in his return? As the years go by and the world’s population at about 7 billion people, it is obvious that proportionately more and more will not "be chosen.� How can an all-loving, understanding god consign more and more of his created children to hell each passing day, especially in these times of exponentially increasing knowledge and more doubt of what supernatural things to believe.

Can anyone posit a reason why the delay in the Second Coming?

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul believed that he and at least some of his readers would still be alive when Jesus returned.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

"WE" WILL NOT SLEEP

1 Corinthians 15: 51-52 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

QUESTION: Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?

No. It is important to note that in the above discussion Paul, addressing the topic of the future resurrection, is using a collective "we" to refer to ALL anointed spirit begotten Christians AS A GROUP and NOT to those exclusively living in the first century; this is not at all unusual and is fairly common in the Christian Greek scriptures.

FOR EXAMPLE : In Paul's letter to the Romans (Chapter 8) he (Paul) speaks about being spirit adopted (verse 14) stating "ALL who are led by God's spirit are indeed God's sons." - NWT but notice Paul that goes on to say "we cry out Abba Father" "WE are God's children" and "provided we suffer together WE may also be glorified together". There are few bible commentors who would suggest that Paul is saying that 2nd and 3rd century Christians do not share that hope of heavenly glorification or that the "we" of being spirit anointed is EXCLUSIVELY for first century Christians and does not apply to Christians into the future.

So when Paul speaks about the "WE" who are still " alive and ... left" at the time of the resurrection there is no reason to limit the application exclusively to century christians rather than spirit anointed christians of later eras.

CONCLUSION: Neither 1 Cor 15:51,52 nor 1 Thess 4:13 are suggesting that Paul is teaching first Century Christians would not die or that they would live to see the future resurrection on the "last day", rather he uses a collective "we" to refer to all spirit anointed Christians as a group and is saying that those Christians alive one earth during that final day would not spend centuries "asleep" in death awaiting Christ's return but would instantly be "caught up, in the twinkling of an eye, to their glorified position in heaven with Christ. He says nothing to indicate that either he personally or those first century recipients of his letter, would personally be alive to experience the later aspect of this phenonomen.

Further Reading:
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101 ... &p=par#h=6


RELATED POSTS

What did Jesus mean when he said certain individuals will meet the Lord "in the air"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p917314

Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p752214

Does Paul means words that some will not "fall asleep in death" mean some people will never die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p917392

When do spirit anointed "born again" Christians join Christ in heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p917395

What does the CHANGE those who are caught up to be with Jesus actually represent? ?
viewtopic.php?p=1064153#p1064153

Do Pauls words that some would not SLEEP not mean that they would not DIE?
viewtopic.php?p=1064110#p1064110

Are the "Great Crowd" caught up to be with Jesus?
viewtopic.php?p=1039502#p1039502

To learn more please go to other posts related to

HEAVEN , DEATH and ... BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS,

[Mithrae]

Paul and the Synoptic Gospel writers were saying that Jesus was going to come back when some of the people who saw Jesus in life would still be alive. John and Acts were written when it was no longer possible to believe that and changed the story. John does it rather clumsily by omitting the Olivet Discourse and making the "not taste death" be a mistake. The always clever Luke in Acts does a terrific tap dance around it.

To be honest it looks like you're doing a bit of tap dancing yourself. Luke was one of the synoptic authors - the two books take the format of consecutive letters to 'Theophilus,' and there's no reason to suppose that there was any length of time between their writing. So how can the author simultaneously downplay Jesus' imminent return (Acts), yet emphasise that it was going to be very soon (Luke)?

The answer is that he doesn't: Luke quite conspicuously changes the prophetic significance of an 'abomination that desolates' (from Daniel), which is found in Mark 13 and Matthew 21, to the more mundane "Jerusalem surrounded by armies," and adds an indefinite delay to the whole affair:

• Mark 13:14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
  
  Matthew 21:15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
  
  Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [l]recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.... 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Of course that's a bit problematic, because Luke - quite happy to change something like the abomination of desolation in order to show a delay in Christ's return - still incorporated the "this generation" phrase. Obviously therefore, it meant something different to Luke than it does to you. Luke was not sure when Jesus was going to come back, and for him the kingdom of God was already in their midst (17:20-21).

By contrast Matthew, alone amongst the synoptic gospels, frequently changes 'kingdom of God' to 'kingdom of Heaven' and even invents a new passage in which Jesus unambiguously predicts his imminent return (Matthew 10:23): "for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes." Matthew was perhaps written shortly after the temple's destruction, and was certain that this was a sign of the end times.

The only real question here is Mark: Was it written before the war, or in its early stages, and merely drawing on prophecies from the Tanakh (notably Daniel) to infer that the temple would sooner or later be destroyed? I see no reason to suppose that wasn't the case. What is very clear, is that usually in Mark the 'kingdom of God' refers to a here-and-now thing, much as in Luke; the kingship of God in believers' lives. For example the parables in Mark chapter 4 are all about the kingdom of God, yet obviously not about eschatology!


So when Mark writes of Jesus that "some standing here" would not taste death until they see "the kingdom of God present with power" (Mk. 9:1), can we really be sure that he didn't mean it exactly the same way Luke took it? That is, the power of the Holy Spirit and alleged miracles accompanying the growth of the early church - the kingdom of God.

Of particular note is that fact that here also Matthew explicitly changes Mark's wording (Mt. 16:28): "there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Why would Matthew need to change that, if Mark's meaning was clearly eschatological?

Answer: Mark's meaning is ambiguous at best, and more likely in line with Luke's here-and-now "kingdom of God" than with Matthew's eschatological "kingdom of heaven."

[JehovahsWitness]

If you want to say that the generation referred to is the one that will be alive when the Son of Man returns, then why should Jesus say that this generation will not pass away before they see it? This is like saying that the people who will be alive when some future event happens will not be dead when it happens. It makes no sense to say something like that.

THE "GENERATION" THAT WILL NOT "PASS AWAY"

QUESTION: Why did Jesus speak about a "generation" not passing away if he was refering to a generation that would witness a single event?

Because Jesus was NOT speaking about that generation witnessing a single event but a SERIES of events that would would be interlinked and stretch out (becoming increasingly worse) over a very long period of time. Note Jesus' actual words:

"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen." - Mat 24: 36

# QUESTION: What are the "things" that " this "generation" would witness?

Just prior to Jesus' series of discourse on Mt of Olives, Jesus disciples questions him. They effectively asked, not one, but THREE questions, about three different events. Masterfully Jesus answer covered all three in detail. Let us first look at the disciple's question:

"Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. In response he said to them: “Do you not behold all these things? Truly I say to you, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down. While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be [1], and what will be the sign of your presence [2] and of the conclusion of the system of things [3] ? Mat 24: 1-3 (New World Translation)

So Jesus' answer (found in Mt chaps 24-25, Luke 21, Mk 13) explained both what first century Christians should expect prior to the destructions of the temple (and the end of the Jewish "system of things "(The Jewish sytem of worship based on the temple in Jerusalem) [1], what later Christians would see to indicate his "presence" (greek "parousia") [2] and finally what events would happen at the conclusion of the ENTIRE WORLD "system of things" culminating in his "return" to judge the inhabitants of the earth and take control of the planet [3]. Leaving aside the 1st century aspects of his discourse [1] the answer as to why Jesus said "this generation" would not all pass away is found in understanding the nature of the Pariousia [2] and Christ return [3]

THE END OF THE WORLD SYSTEM [2] [3]

Jesus spoke about events that would serve as a "sign" that he (Jesus) was "present". This "presence" would not be his literal presence on earth and is not to be confused with is "return" (greek: erkhomai) to destory the entire world system (refered in scriptures as Armageddon) [3]. Rather this would be the period leading up to that climatic event. These events would not all happen at once, indeed Jesus specifically stated that those that saw the beginning of these signs should not believe that the end was imminent.

"You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet" - Mt 24:6

He then spoke about "pangs of distress" indicating that world conditions would get progressively worse over a period of time.

# How long from "the beginning of the end" to the actual end of the system?

Jesus did not say, he explained it would not be possible to calcuate exactly when the end (His coming/return - erkomai) would be saying "no one knows the day or hour" (Mt 24:36). However, he did limit the period [2] to a "generation", thus showing it would not extened for many centuries or millennia but that the first "signs" would lead to the end of the world system (and his "return" in kingdom power) within a relatively short period.

CONCLUSION: Jesus spoke of a (future) "generation" not passing away because his was pointing to TWO seperate but related series of events, seperated by many decades. He however wanted Christians to understand that that period of time would be limited and would not extend for thousands of years.

Further Reading
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013530#h=11
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books ... last-days/


Regards,
JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE GENTILE TIMES , THE LAST DAYS and ...THE GENERATION

[JLB32168]

And above all the good things attributed to him there is one supreme caveat that hangs like the sword of Damocles over our heads: that Heaven is only achievable to those who believe in him – indeed, those who don’t will be condemned to everlasting fire and brimstone.

“Believe in him� is ambiguous. What exactly does it mean? I’ve heard it said that Satan believes in him.

Also, the New Testament tells us that Christ’s departure from Earth 2,000 years ago will be short-lived and his return is imminent . . . to take up to Heaven all those who follow Him – that “few will be chosen.�

If God is ageless then how may one determine a short time?

How can an all-loving, understanding god consign more and more of his created children to hell each passing day, especially in these times of exponentially increasing knowledge and more doubt of what supernatural things to believe?

Many people will believe. Your logic would say that because there will be lots of people who don’t believe that the good people that would believe should never be born. Evil has triumphed over good if God refrains from creating simply because some people will choose evil over good.
God cannot win if we apply your logic.

[Ancient of Years]

“If you want to say that the generation referred to is the one that will be alive when the Son of Man returns, then why should Jesus say that this generation will not pass away before they see it? This is like saying that the people who will be alive when some future event happens will not be dead when it happens. It makes no sense to say something like that.

THE "GENERATION" THAT WILL NOT "PASS AWAY"

QUESTION: Why did Jesus speak about a "generation" not passing away if he was refering to a generation that would witness a single event?

Because Jesus was NOT speaking about that generation witnessing a single event but a SERIES of events that would would be interlinked and stretch out (becoming increasingly worse) over a very long period of time. Note Jesus' actual words:

"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen." - Mat 24: 36

# QUESTION: What are the "things" that "this generation" would witness?

Just prior to Jesus' series of discourse on Mt of Olives, Jesus disciples questions him. They effectively asked, not one, but THREE questions, about three different events. Masterfully Jesus answer covered all three in detail. Let us first look at the disciple's question:

"Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. In response he said to them: “Do you not behold all these things? Truly I say to you, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.� While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be [1], and what will be the sign of your presence [2] and of the conclusion of the system of things [3] ?� .� Mat 24: 1-3 (New World Translation)

So Jesus' answer (found in Mt chaps 24-25, Luke 21, Mk 13) explained both what first century Christians should expect prior to the destructions of the temple (and the end of the Jewish "system of things "(The Jewish sytem of worship based on the temple in Jerusalem) [1], what later Christians would see to indicate his "presence" (greek "parousia") [2] and finally what events would happen at the conclusion of the ENTIRE WORLD "system of things" culminating in his "return" to judge the inhabitants of the earth and take control of the planet [3]. Leaving aside the 1st century aspects of his discourse [1] the answer as to why Jesus said "this generation" would not all pass away is found in understanding the nature of the Pariousia [2] and Christ return [3]

THE END OF THE WORLD SYSTEM [2] [3]

Jesus spoke about events that would serve as a "sign" that he (Jesus) was "present". This "presence" would not be his literal presence on earth and is not to be confused with is "return" (greek: erkhomai) to destory the entire world system (refered in scriptures as Armageddon) [3]. Rather this would be the period leading up to that climatic event. These events would not all happen at once, indeed Jesus specifically stated that those that saw the beginning of these signs should not believe that the end was imminent.

"You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet" - Mt 24:6

He then spoke about "pangs of distress" indicating that world conditions would get progressively worse over a period of time.

# How long from "the beginning of the end" to the actual end of the system?

Jesus did not say, he explained it would not be possible to calcuate exactly when the end (His coming/return - erkomai) would be saying "no one knows the day or hour" (Mt 24:36). However, he did limit the period [2] to a "generation", thus showing it would not extened for many centuries or millennia but that the first "signs" would lead to the end of the world system (and his "return" in kingdom power) within a relatively short period.

CONCLUSION: Jesus spoke of a (future) "generation" not passing away because his was pointing to TWO seperate but related series of events, seperated by many décades. He however wanted Christians to understand that that period of time would be limited and would not extend for thousands of years.

Further Reading
http://m.wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013530#h=11
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books ... last-days/


Regars,
JW

You still have not addressed these issues.

“If you want to say that the generation referred to is the one that will be alive when the Son of Man returns, then why should Jesus say that this generation will not pass away before they see it? This is like saying that the people who will be alive when some future event happens will not be dead when it happens. It makes no sense to say something like that. Considering the connections to the "not taste death" passages, there is only one reasonable meaning that can be given to the phrase "this generation" and that is the "this generation" that Jesus was living in.�

Why refer to a generation at all if the events are well in the future? A rather odd choice of words, especially since absolutely every other reference in the Gospels to “this generation� is very definitely to the generation alive at the time of Jesus. (Reference)

[strike]“You also have not addressed the “not taste death� passages except to omit the timeframe reference and then claim the timeframe reference does not exist. Those passages clearly say that some people who were standing there with Jesus would still be alive when the Son of Man appeared in glory with angels, exactly as it says will happen in the Olivet Discourse.�

No comment on this? It ties into the meaning of “this generation�.[/strike]

Just realized you replied separately. I will respond separately

Jesus begins the discourse with talking about the destruction of the Temple. The Temple and the fig tree have previously been linked thematically. The fig tree is invoked at the end of the discourse, ending up with “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.� The destruction of the Temple is the sign that the Son of Man will return soon, maintaining the expectation raised by Paul and by the ‘not taste death’ passages. It is not the destruction of the Temple that is the “Beginning of the birth pains� (Mark 13:8). It is all the other signs mentioned, all of which can be shown to have happened before the destruction of the Temple.

What then is the “the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?� (Mark 13:4) “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.� (Mark 13:14) This is a reference to prophecies in Daniel concerning the desecration of the Temple.

Luke, whose audience is mainly Gentiles, makes it more explicit in Chapter 21. “20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.�

Paul, the ‘not taste death’ passages, the ‘this generation’ references, the association of the end with the destruction of the Temple, all these point to an expectation that Jesus would return very soon, while some contemporaries of Jesus would still be alive. This is why John, written when that is no longer credible, has to ignore the Olivet Discourse entirely and clumsily contradict the ‘not taste death’ passages. This is why Acts, also written too late, has an angel tell the Apostles to stop looking at the sky, Jesus will come back someday.

[Ancient of Years]

The timeframe is explicit in the part of the quotes you omitted. Here they are again. Some of the people standing there with Jesus will still be alive when the Son of Man returns.

QUESTION: Did Jesus indicate that his first century disciples would see him returned in Kingdom power? (Mark 9:1; Matthew 16: 27, 28; Luke 9: 27)

ANSWER: No, not literally. Firstly, note that Jesus' emphasis was on those present would "see" not necessarily what would happen. For example: one can today "see" Elvis, although he is in fact long dead and a vision of the future could, in theory enable someone to "see" a winning lottery ticket even if it hasn't yet been chosen. In a similar way, Jesus was promising his disciples they would "see" something quite magnificent but not that that magnificent event would literally be happening when they see it.

Indeed, what Jesus promising was that they would "see" him in his kingdom glory, something which they did indeed witnesses in a vision a week later; This event is often referred to as "the transfiguration"

The bible writer Luke, links Jesus' words above with the transfiguration, explaining: "In fact, about eight days after saying these words, he [Jesus] took Peter, John, and James along and climbed up the mountain to pray. And as he was praying, the appearance of his face changed and his clothing became glitteringly white." - Luke 9: 28, 29. So Luke equates the fullfillment of Jesus words to this event.

Further, The Apostle Peter (one of those present) also viewed the transfiguration as a fullfilment of Jesus promise above. Refering to the same event Peter writes: "we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence.  For he received from God the Father honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.� Yes, these words we heard coming from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain" The apostle John may also have alluded to the transfiguration at John 1:14.


Note: Christ "coming" is not to be confused with the "Parousia" or his presence [Mat 24:3]

Jesus said:

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

As per v 24 Jesus was talking to his disciples.

Here is the Transfiguration scene.

Matthew 17
17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.�

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!�

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,� he said. “Don’t be afraid.� 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

Some problems:

• Why should Jesus need to emphasize (“Truly I tell youâ€�) that some of the disciples would not die in the next six days? It does not seem that any of them died. If Jesus knew when each would die, as would be necessary for him to make that statement, and some of them were going to die soon why did he pick them in the first place?
  
  Presumably Jesus was speaking to all of his Apostles. Yet only Peter, James and John the brother of James see the Transfiguration. Were they not all supposed to see it? Why did he tell all of them about it?
  
  There were supposed to be angels. What happened to them?
  
  Where is the rewarding that was mentioned?
  
  What about the kingdom?

The ‘not taste death’ passage is clearly not a reference to the Transfiguration but to the return of the Son of Man at the end of days.

Matthew 24
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Glory, angels, reward, kingdom. Plus the tie in between ‘not taste death’ and ‘this generation’.

[Daddieslittlehelper]

As a former Christian it has been my understanding that Jesus Christ is an all-loving, compassionate personal God (or Son of God). And above all the good things attributed to him there is one supreme caveat that hangs like the sword of Damocles over our heads: that Heaven is only achievable to those who believe in him – indeed, those who don’t will be condemned to everlasting fire and brimstone.

Also, the New Testament tells us that Christ’s departure from Earth 2,000 years ago will be short-lived and his return is imminent . . . to take up to Heaven all those who follow Him – that “few will be chosen.�

My question for debate is: Knowing “few will be chosen,� why is there such a delay in his return? As the years go by and the world’s population at about 7 billion people, it is obvious that proportionately more and more will not "be chosen.� How can an all-loving, understanding god consign more and more of his created children to hell each passing day, especially in these times of exponentially increasing knowledge and more doubt of what supernatural things to believe.

Can anyone posit a reason why the delay in the Second Coming?

Well Jesus´secound comming is actually on the Day of judgement.

So you are gonna be waiting a while considering that the day of Judgement happens after the 1000 years of peace.

So it depends on who you are waiting for. If you mean the lamb, then he will be comming at some point and if you mean the Immanuel he´ll be comming at some point later.

Just so we are Clear the christians are waiting for the Advocate and the lamb and Jesus.

The Jews are waiting for Elijah, Cyrus the suffering servant, Zerubabbel, Joshua the branch and the Immanuel.

The Muslims are waitng for Isa.

The hindus are wainting for a few people. any way.

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to Daddieslittlehelper]

I ask a straight-forward question and get a passel of obfuscating biblical quotes that makes the Gordian Knot pale in comparison. Why not a straight-forward answer? Probably because there is none. Billions will “burn in hell� because they can’t be brought to unravel the ecclesiastic jargon.

I think I have struck a raw nerve with my OP. The defensiveness of the religious intelligence is a tangled web of possibilities, probabilities, interpretations, opinions and other vagaries. Many of us know full well that it isn’t essential for a good life to be dead-ended by such prattle.



Sorry JW, it was 1213 that quoted ". . . when the Gentiles . . ."

Well Jesus´secound comming is actually on the Day of judgement.

So you are gonna be waiting a while considering that the day of Judgement happens after the 1000 years of peace.

So it depends on who you are waiting for. If you mean the lamb, then he will be comming at some point Smile and if you mean the Immanuel he´ll be comming at some point later. Very Happy

Just so we are Clear the christians are waiting for the Advocate and the lamb and Jesus.

The Jews are waiting for Elijah, Cyrus the suffering servant, Zerubabbel, Joshua the branch and the Immanuel.

The Muslims are waitng for Isa.

The hindus are wainting for a few people. Very Happy any way.

More of the same! I am happy for you, daddieslittlehelper, that you are happy in your opinion. So which of the above are you waiting for since there are a bunch of religions you mention? I think I'll be happily long gone before any of the above occurs.

[H.sapiens]

As a former Christian it has been my understanding that Jesus Christ is an all-loving, compassionate personal God (or Son of God). And above all the good things attributed to him there is one supreme caveat that hangs like the sword of Damocles over our heads: that Heaven is only achievable to those who believe in him – indeed, those who don’t will be condemned to everlasting fire and brimstone.

Also, the New Testament tells us that Christ’s departure from Earth 2,000 years ago will be short-lived and his return is imminent . . . to take up to Heaven all those who follow Him – that “few will be chosen.�

My question for debate is: Knowing “few will be chosen,� why is there such a delay in his return? As the years go by and the world’s population at about 7 billion people, it is obvious that proportionately more and more will not "be chosen.� How can an all-loving, understanding god consign more and more of his created children to hell each passing day, especially in these times of exponentially increasing knowledge and more doubt of what supernatural things to believe.

Can anyone posit a reason why the delay in the Second Coming?

Perhaps Jesus missed the bus?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 17 by 2Dbunk]

I'm not sure what is hard to understand. Christ does not return until everyone who is supposed to come to Him has come to Him.

Admittedly, 1213 was much more succinct with his post about the full number of the gentiles coming in. Hence, I 'liked' his post.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Very easy to understand, but also much deserving of an explanation.
The human race will continue until something exterminates it. Without constraint there will be people coming to him until the last human dies.

That, is mission failure, and certainly hope, NOT what you mean.

So what are the other constraints? Until only evil people are in the world? That's a cool one, because if that is true, no one will know the difference, and the logic of the situation disctates not only mission failure, but total irrelevance.

So, I at least, really need help with the statement.

Forum: I'd really appreciate any answer to "TiredoftheNonsense"'s post/questions.

Just how long is it reasonable to wait?
Personally, I say 3/4 of a lifetime, or about 57 years.