Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

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polonius
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Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

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Post #11

Post by Jolly_Penguin »

Follow up question: If Jesus "Died" for my sins, but then he came back... do my sins come back too? I mean he was dead for a couple of days, yes? That doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice. Basically he had a bad long weekend for my sins. Is that still enough to cancel my sins out?

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Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Jolly_Penguin wrote: Follow up question: If Jesus "Died" for my sins, but then he came back... do my sins come back too? I mean he was dead for a couple of days, yes? That doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice. Basically he had a bad long weekend for my sins. Is that still enough to cancel my sins out?
No. Jesus sacrificed his perfect HUMAN life. He was resurrected as a spirit and will never reclaim that human life again. (You are right if he were to reclaim his life as a HUMAN it would render null and void his sacrifice).

Hope that helps,

JW


Further reading
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books ... sacrifice/
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Post #13

Post by Divine Insight »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Jolly_Penguin wrote: Follow up question: If Jesus "Died" for my sins, but then he came back... do my sins come back too? I mean he was dead for a couple of days, yes? That doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice. Basically he had a bad long weekend for my sins. Is that still enough to cancel my sins out?
No. Jesus sacrificed his perfect HUMAN life. He was resurrected as a spirit and will never reclaim that human life again. (You are right if he were to reclaim his life as a HUMAN it would render null and void his sacrifice).

Hope that helps,

JW
No, that doesn't help at all.

In fact, if spiritual life is far superior to human life, then Jesus didn't sacrifice anything at all.

The problem with Christianity is that Jesus actually got the reward that every Christian dreams of getting. In fact, Jesus even got better than that. Jesus not only received eternal life, but he gets to be the lord over everyone for the rest of eternity. That's far better than merely being given eternal life as an eternal slave to God.

So there is no way that Jesus could have paid for the sins for anyone. Jesus supposedly got a reward far greater than any human saint who ever lived.

So no, your apology doesn't help. In fact, it doesn't even make any sense at all.
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Post #14

Post by Inigo Montoya »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Jolly_Penguin wrote: Follow up question: If Jesus "Died" for my sins, but then he came back... do my sins come back too? I mean he was dead for a couple of days, yes? That doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice. Basically he had a bad long weekend for my sins. Is that still enough to cancel my sins out?
No. Jesus sacrificed his perfect HUMAN life. He was resurrected as a spirit and will never reclaim that human life again. (You are right if he were to reclaim his life as a HUMAN it would render null and void his sacrifice).

Hope that helps,

JW


Further reading
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books ... sacrifice/
Curious. John 20:27 says " Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.�

Are you saying Jesus was in spirit form when Thomas interacted with his wounds?

What is spirit form and how is it distinguishable from physical form in this verse?

Why do you believe, at least once, a spirit walked around and talked to folk?

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Post #15

Post by Ancient of Years »

Inigo Montoya wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Jolly_Penguin wrote: Follow up question: If Jesus "Died" for my sins, but then he came back... do my sins come back too? I mean he was dead for a couple of days, yes? That doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice. Basically he had a bad long weekend for my sins. Is that still enough to cancel my sins out?
No. Jesus sacrificed his perfect HUMAN life. He was resurrected as a spirit and will never reclaim that human life again. (You are right if he were to reclaim his life as a HUMAN it would render null and void his sacrifice).

Hope that helps,

JW


Further reading
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books ... sacrifice/
Curious. John 20:27 says " Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.�

Are you saying Jesus was in spirit form when Thomas interacted with his wounds?

What is spirit form and how is it distinguishable from physical form in this verse?

Why do you believe, at least once, a spirit walked around and talked to folk?
Yes, the resurrected Jesus is definitely portrayed as being physical in the Gospels.
Luke 24

36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.�

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.�

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?� 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

William Blake

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Post #16

Post by Inigo Montoya »

[Replying to post 15 by Ancient of Years]

Even better examples here from you.

This seems as at odds with what JW is claiming as it's possible to be.

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Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Divine Insight wrote: In fact, if spiritual life is far superior to human life, then Jesus didn't sacrifice anything at all. .
SACRIFICE

The act of giving up something that you want to keep especially in order to get or do something else or to help someone

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sacrifice
So according to Merriam-Webster dictionary, whether that "something else" is superior or not is irrelevant, the "sacrifice" is intrinc to the "giving up" and/or "helping someone".

To illustrate: An athelete makes lots of "sacrifices" for his or her career. He might sacrifice nights out with his friends, drinking and eating Junk food (which he may or may not love) in order to get up at 5 in the morning and work out. Is he making sacrifices? Yes. What might he GET in return? A gold medal at the Olymics, which may open doors to a lucrative career, money, fame, admiration... indeed everything he ever dreamed of. If he's successful, does this mean he made no SACRIFICES to get there? No, he can STILL (from his Hollywood mansion) legitimately say he made "sacrifices" to get where he is.

Yes, Jesus received an elevated position in heaven. But like that athlete, who can never go back and have those nights out with his friends, Jesus gave up his earthly human life. More than that the process of him giving this up was extremely painful and (in line with the dictionary definition) he did this FOR someone eles. So in line of the above, it is accurate to say Jesus did indeed make a "sacrifice" and that irrespective of subsequent gains.

Interesting point though, thank God for DICTIONARIES.


JW


Further reading
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books ... sacrifice/
To learn more please go to other posts related to

SIN, THE RANSOM SACRIFICE and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #18

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Christians consistently declare that the resurrection of Jesus from the dead is one of the most extensively attested to "historical events" in all of antiquity. Hundreds of individuals, Christians assert, witnessed the "risen" Jesus. This completely ignores the fact that no such hundreds of attestations exist. Disregarding the dozens of various apocryphal gospels, epistles and acts of, which were written and for which even dedicated Christian scholars freely admit are pure fiction, we are left with exactly five sources upon which Christians based their claims for the risen Jesus. These are the letters written by Paul, and the authors of the four canonical Gospels, attributed by tradition to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; individuals who clearly were not personally present to have witnessed the risen Jesus, or who cannot in fact be identified.

But Christian claims of overwhelming historical attestation also overlook another very important point. And that is that NO OTHER generally accepted occurrence in history is based on miraculous claims. Which is to say, upon claims which defy common experience and the known laws of nature. Which the story of the flying reanimated corpse of Jesus surely does. The stories surrounding Jesus have far more in common with the myths surrounding Hercules in fact, than they do any generally accepted history. The Greek hero Heracles was widely considered to have been an actual historical person in ancient times, and much like Jesus, stories of his amazing deeds were considered to have been "historical," and were widely disseminated as true historical events in ancient times. And not simply by the Greeks either.

Heracles
Christian chronology
In Christian circles a Euhemerist reading of the widespread Heracles cult was attributed to a historical figure who had been offered cult status after his death. Thus Eusebius, Preparation of the Gospel (10.12), reported that Clement could offer historical dates for Hercules as a king in Argos: "from the reign of Hercules in Argos to the deification of Hercules himself and of Asclepius there are comprised thirty-eight years, according to Apollodorus the chronicler: and from that point to the deification of Castor and Pollux fifty-three years: and somewhere about this time was the capture of Troy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles

A heroic figure raised to cult status and deified after his death by his adoring followers. Imagine that! Here is a list of the achievements of Hercules/Heracles considered to have been fully historical in ancient times.


Wikipedia
Labours
Hercules is known for his many adventures, which took him to the far reaches of the Greco-Roman world. One cycle of these adventures became canonical as the "Twelve Labours," but the list has variations. One traditional order of the labours is found in the Bibliotheca as follows:[2]
Slay the Nemean Lion.
Slay the nine-headed Lernaean Hydra.
Capture the Golden Hind of Artemis.
Capture the Erymanthian Boar.
Clean the Augean stables in a single day.
Slay the Stymphalian Birds.
Capture the Cretan Bull.
Steal the Mares of Diomedes.
Obtain the girdle of Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons.
Obtain the cattle of the monster Geryon.
Steal the apples of the Hesperides.
Capture and bring back Cerberus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules

And where are these events placed in generally accepted modern History? IN THE SECTION ENTITLED MYTHOLOGY!

The story of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead was widely regarded at the time by the individuals in the best position to have actual knowledge of the actual facts, the Jewish population of Jerusalem, to have been a hoax perpetrated by Jesus' followers. That is in fact the obvious conclusion.
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense on Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 14 by Inigo Montoya]NOTE: Since Indigo Montoya's question was based on scripture, I will proceed to present an answer equally based on scriptures without a discussion on the historical accuracy of the gospel accounts.


QUESTION: Does the bible teach that Jesus was ressurrected back to human life in a physical body?

ANSWER: No. Firstly, to reclaim his human life would render null and void the sacrifice of that life. Further the bible explicitly states the following:
1 PETER 3:18
For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive [resurrected][ in the spirit.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:44,45
It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body [...] The first man Adam became a living person. The last Adam [Jesus] became a life-giving spirit.

2 CORINTHIANS 5:16
Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.
JOHN 20:27

" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe"

QUESTION: So if Jesus was raised as a spirit, how was it possible his disciples saw and touched him?

Image


The answer to this question lies in understanding what, according to scriptures, spirits are capable of doing.

A spirit is an intelligent unseen (invisible to humans) lifeform. God Himself is a spirit (John 4:24) and angels are spirits (He 1:14). If we examine scriptures closely, we see that angels (spirits) have been seen by humans - remember the angel Gabriel appearing to Mary, the mother of Jesus? (see Lk 1: 28. Also spirits (angels) are recorded in scripture as eating food (compare Gen 19: 1, 3; Lk 24:40) and that they could touch and be touched by humans (see Gen 19:10). Indeed often in scripture, far fromt he popular depiction of men with wings, angels when they appeared were often simply mistaken for ordinary humans (men) - compare Gen 18: 2, 8

Does the above mean that Gabriel and the other spirit angels were HUMAN? Most people would reasonably conclude that, for example, although evidently angels (normally invisible to humans) made themselves visibible, he in actuality remained a spirit (angel). Given the above scriptural evidence, it seems reasonable to conclude that spirits can, for want of a better word, "materialize" at will. So Thomas and the disciples saw and interacted with Jesus in "human form" (as did Mary, Abraham and Lot with other spirits) but that did not make them "human" simply spirits that have taken on huan appearance or "materialized" /adopted visible human-like bodies for the specific purpose of direct interaction - or in the case of Thomas, to strengthen his faith in the fact of the resurrection.

Finally, as a side point we can arguably look at the matter from another angle, we cann also look at what HUMANS can and cannot do. Humans cannot walk through solid walls, humans cannot travel from one location to another miles away within minutes, humans cannot instantly disappear. All of which the gospel accounts record as things Jesus did after his resurrection but never prior to his death even with all his miraculous powers.

CONCLUSION: Jesus was indeed resurrected as a spirit but retained the abilities that Gabriel and other spirits evidently have to "materialize" to be seen, or even physically touched by humans.

Further reading
http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/qu ... esus-body/


JESUS RESURRECTION

Was Jesus resurrected as a human being?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p909944

Was Jesus resurrected in a spiritual or physical body?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 16#p753616

If Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, how could he show Thomas the sounds on his body?
viewtopic.php?p=1063505#p1063505

Did Jesus post resurrection body carry the wounds inflicted on it during his execution ?
viewtopic.php?p=967900#p967900

Why did Jesus' disciples not recognise him after his resurrection?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 49#p967749

Why could God not simply give Jesus back his old body?
viewtopic.php?p=1035994#p1035994

If Jesus was not raised in the same body, why was the tomb empty?
viewtopic.php?p=1036029#p1036029

Was Mary able to touch the risen Christ?
viewtopic.php?p=908706#p908706
To read more please go to other posts related to...

THE RESURRECTION , JESUS RESURRECTION and ... RESSURECTION CHRONOLOGY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:55 pm, edited 9 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #20

Post by Zzyzx »

.
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Inigo Montoya]NOTE: Since Indigo Montoya's question was based on scripture, I will proceed to present an answer equally based on scriptures without a discussion on the historical accuracy of the gospel accounts.
Thank you for the scriptural account.

Now, let's discuss whether the story is a historically accurate account of real / actual / literal events that occurred in the real world rather than in imagination, illusion, delusion and/or fantasy -- and whether interpretations and opinions are accurate.
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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