As I consider God, its hard for me to consider him needing a place like hell? The Christian concept of eternal hell punishing is a barbaric thing to consider. Why would God need to punish a human for all of eternity. Lets just say a human does not believe in God, and they live that way for 80 years; they die and according to many interpretations of hell , they will be brought back to life; judged, then banished to an eternity of living suffering in this hell.
I mean that punishment does not even fit the crime; 80 years of living, now they must live forever in suffering? Why?
Why would a God even need to do that?
Why would God need a hell?
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ttruscott
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Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #201Because it, that is, salvation from sin to be in heaven, is the change from hating GOD to loving GOD and being willing to marry HIM...a process that needs a free will or none of it is true. The goal is not to be sinless, (much easier done) it is to be loving, holy and married...and these things cannot be forced by what you call a free gift, or they are not real.mickiel wrote:Sapphire wrote: [Replying to post 189 by mickiel]
Why does it make sense to you, that when given a choice for eternal life...you reject it??
Why can't it just be a free gift that choice has nothing to do with?
NO, the free gift is our Lord going against our sinful evil wills to bring us back to our first free will decision to bow to HIM and thus fulfill HIS election promise to us. This cannot happen for the reprobate because they never made any free will decision to bow to HIM so they cannot be brought back to it and since they are now totally addicted to evil, they cannot be saved.
I contend that this process happened before we became evil and we are working it out here on earth but most Christians believe we have a free will here an now (though it is not logical) and here and now is when we make our decision.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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ttruscott
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Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #202That to judge is also to be discriminating, to be discerning, should be considered. To express the results of one's discriminating discernment is to report, not to judge in the sense of to announce a conviction against someone.mickiel wrote:
You have made some horrible judgments concerning me; That I have pride; that I have not humbled myself to God; That I reject him. Very typical of a Christian.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #203ttruscott wrote:People don't choose to go to hell - they choose to avoid bowing to GOD; they avoid having to answer for their choices.They choose for moral independence in which their choices must be accepted as right for them therefore perfectly right from every perspective, alas, rejecting YHWH's definitions of good and evil as stemming from HIS deity.mickiel wrote:Why does it make sense to you that an all wise God would allow humans to choose such a fate?Sapphire wrote: [Replying to mickiel]
Does the creation, question it's CREATOR??
GOD is the beginning of all things. The fact that you're a living, breathing human being... is because HE created you.
The answer:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6
Your choice: heaven/eternal life. or hell/eternal separation from life
No one is going to force you to believe. God didn't create robots and program them to believe. (God is not a dictator)
Dictators force their will on people. God gives you a CHOICE.
As for HIM allowing a bad choice, it is a necessary part of the free will ability as I have explained before. Without the ability to choose against what GOD wants, there can be no free will, no true love and no true marriage to GOD in heaven.
Your negative, dooming view of humanity does not scare me, because I know the scriptures. The future of humanity is to bow to God, in Isaiah 45:23 God swears that to him EVERY knee shall bow and every mouth will confess to him, which is conversion. Your Christian sadism has no effect on me.
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myth-one.com
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Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #204No. The wages, or consequences, or punishment for sin is DEATH:Sapphire wrote:Jesus is the answer to sin. The punishment for sin, is hell.
Hell is simply the cause of that death.For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
No. The wages of sin is death, not "Eternal separation from HIM."Sapphire wrote:They will have Eternal separation from HIM.
Eternal separation from HIM is simply one consequence of being dead.
The dead are separated eternally from everything! They know and are aware of absolutely nothing:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #205Amen.ttruscott wrote:People don't choose to go to hell - they choose to avoid bowing to GOD; they avoid having to answer for their choices.They choose for moral independence in which their choices must be accepted as right for them therefore perfectly right from every perspective, alas, rejecting YHWH's definitions of good and evil as stemming from HIS deity.mickiel wrote:Why does it make sense to you that an all wise God would allow humans to choose such a fate?Sapphire wrote: [Replying to mickiel]
Does the creation, question it's CREATOR??
GOD is the beginning of all things. The fact that you're a living, breathing human being... is because HE created you.
The answer:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6
Your choice: heaven/eternal life. or hell/eternal separation from life
No one is going to force you to believe. God didn't create robots and program them to believe. (God is not a dictator)
Dictators force their will on people. God gives you a CHOICE.
As for HIM allowing a bad choice, it is a necessary part of the free will ability as I have explained before. Without the ability to choose against what GOD wants, there can be no free will, no true love and no true marriage to GOD in heaven.
Thank you for your posts.
Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #206mickiel wrote:ttruscott wrote:People don't choose to go to hell - they choose to avoid bowing to GOD; they avoid having to answer for their choices.They choose for moral independence in which their choices must be accepted as right for them therefore perfectly right from every perspective, alas, rejecting YHWH's definitions of good and evil as stemming from HIS deity.mickiel wrote:Why does it make sense to you that an all wise God would allow humans to choose such a fate?Sapphire wrote: [Replying to mickiel]
Does the creation, question it's CREATOR??
GOD is the beginning of all things. The fact that you're a living, breathing human being... is because HE created you.
The answer:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6
Your choice: heaven/eternal life. or hell/eternal separation from life
No one is going to force you to believe. God didn't create robots and program them to believe. (God is not a dictator)
Dictators force their will on people. God gives you a CHOICE.
As for HIM allowing a bad choice, it is a necessary part of the free will ability as I have explained before. Without the ability to choose against what GOD wants, there can be no free will, no true love and no true marriage to GOD in heaven.
Your negative, dooming view of humanity does not scare me, because I know the scriptures. The future of humanity is to bow to God, in Isaiah 45:23 God swears that to him EVERY knee shall bow and every mouth will confess to him, which is conversion. Your Christian sadism has no effect on me.
Philippians 2:9-11
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Every person that rejects Jesus, will in fact bow down at the Great White Throne Judgment. There, the books will be opened and those who rejected Jesus, will be judged and cast out.
Revelation 20:15
15. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
I didn't write this to force my will on you. This is the Word of GOD. Not my word. And I have chosen HIM.
Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #207Sapphire wrote:mickiel wrote:ttruscott wrote:People don't choose to go to hell - they choose to avoid bowing to GOD; they avoid having to answer for their choices.They choose for moral independence in which their choices must be accepted as right for them therefore perfectly right from every perspective, alas, rejecting YHWH's definitions of good and evil as stemming from HIS deity.mickiel wrote:Why does it make sense to you that an all wise God would allow humans to choose such a fate?Sapphire wrote: [Replying to mickiel]
Does the creation, question it's CREATOR??
GOD is the beginning of all things. The fact that you're a living, breathing human being... is because HE created you.
The answer:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6
Your choice: heaven/eternal life. or hell/eternal separation from life
No one is going to force you to believe. God didn't create robots and program them to believe. (God is not a dictator)
Dictators force their will on people. God gives you a CHOICE.
As for HIM allowing a bad choice, it is a necessary part of the free will ability as I have explained before. Without the ability to choose against what GOD wants, there can be no free will, no true love and no true marriage to GOD in heaven.
Your negative, dooming view of humanity does not scare me, because I know the scriptures. The future of humanity is to bow to God, in Isaiah 45:23 God swears that to him EVERY knee shall bow and every mouth will confess to him, which is conversion. Your Christian sadism has no effect on me.
Philippians 2:9-11
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Every person that rejects Jesus, will in fact bow down at the Great White Throne Judgment. There, the books will be opened and those who rejected Jesus, will be judged and cast out.
Revelation 20:15
15. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
I didn't write this to force my will on you. This is the Word of GOD. Not my word. And I have chosen HIM.
Yes, the powerful Christian will, " I HAVE CHOSEN HIM", where the bible is clear that God must choose the human and draw him, John 6:44. You Christians just like to glory in what " You do", salvation is YOUR Choice; something that you did; something that you control. Its YOUR work, YOUR decision, your power, your effort; Christianity is a self improvement program.
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ttruscott
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Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #208Satan, doomed already to everlasting fire, will bow to the Church: Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you. which implies a bowing to the GOD of the Church.mickiel wrote:
Your negative, dooming view of humanity does not scare me, because I know the scriptures. The future of humanity is to bow to God, in Isaiah 45:23 God swears that to him EVERY knee shall bow and every mouth will confess to him, which is conversion. Your Christian sadism has no effect on me.
All, even those now under HIS wrath, have already bowed to the Almighty GOD and have seen and acknowledged HIS deity and HIS power so they are without excuse: Romans 1:20 For from the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
So bowing down to HIS GLORY does not constitute conversion at all, your wishful thinking aside.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #209[Replying to mickiel]
Eternal reward (life in the presence of God) would be meaningless without the possibility of eternal punishment.The lake of fire was intended for Lucifer and his minions, but people choose to go there by rejecting God.One does not need to be a card carrying member of a Satan worshipping organization to be a devil worshipper.Jesus said," if you're not for me, you're against me", it's that simple.
Eternal reward (life in the presence of God) would be meaningless without the possibility of eternal punishment.The lake of fire was intended for Lucifer and his minions, but people choose to go there by rejecting God.One does not need to be a card carrying member of a Satan worshipping organization to be a devil worshipper.Jesus said," if you're not for me, you're against me", it's that simple.
Re: Why would God need a hell?
Post #210[Replying to post 203 by mickiel]
God indeed draws people to Himself. The Word of God said He loved us first, and gave His only begotten Son to save the world.
Then... comes choice. And I chose to follow HIM. It's about His saving grace that saved my soul. And it's about me responding to His invitation, by the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. And in Him, and through Him, I have my being.
God indeed draws people to Himself. The Word of God said He loved us first, and gave His only begotten Son to save the world.
Then... comes choice. And I chose to follow HIM. It's about His saving grace that saved my soul. And it's about me responding to His invitation, by the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. And in Him, and through Him, I have my being.
