Does Christ speak and how?

[tam]

May you have peace!

A question that continues to be posed to me is with regard to my bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. How does He speak? What does that mean? How can we test that?

I imagine that one reason the questions are continually posed to me is because I cannot provide the proof that some are asking me to provide. I can only provide evidence in the form of:

a) Personal testimony from having heard Christ
b) The written testimony of or about others who have heard Christ
c) What Christ Himself is written to have said on the matter


If none of the above are acceptable to someone, then I am not sure what more that person and I would have to talk about on this particular matter. We could hopefully discuss respectfully from a point of love, reason, logic. For those who are interested...


Christ said that His sheep would hear His voice.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.…" John 10:14-16



Written testimony about/from others who heard His voice, confirming the truth of what He said:

The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it." Acts 8:29

**
In Damascus, there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"

"Yes Lord," he answered.

The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." (Acts 9:10,11... and it continues)

**
There is Peter's vision telling him that he should eat foods that he considered unclean, and then after his vision:

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit (Christ) said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them." (Acts 10: 9-20)

**
There are of course multiple examples from Paul. The entire book of Revelation is from Christ to John. There is a warning against hardening our hearts if we hear His voice.

As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." Hebrews 3:15

Then of course there are the examples of Abraham, who heard, Noah, who heard, the prophets, who heard, Joseph, who heard, Daniel, who heard, etc, etc. Their faith is based upon the evidence of what they heard.



My own personal testimony


I did not always know that Christ spoke, and I did not always recognize that voice within me as being His. But someone else bore witness to a living speaking Christ, and it bothered me, lol. I had just ended a two year bible study with a certain denomination, and I did not want to get misled by man ever gain. But here was this person claiming that Christ spoke. If I believed this person, that they were from God, then what was wrong with me that I allowed myself to get misled yet again. On the other hand, what was wrong with me if this person did hear Christ, and I rejected them?

But soon into my dilemma (and my asking how I might know, even though I thought I was just asking myself) I heard:

Test WHAT this person is saying. Test the message. Do not pay attention to the person. Test to see if what this person is saying is true, or not. Then you will know who this person is from.


I still did not know this was Christ speaking to me. I just thought, "Oh, of course... that is what I will do."

So that is what I did. Along the way, I saw all these verses and examples and testimony that Christ does indeed speak, that God spoke also, though now speaks through Christ. In dreams, in visions, in direct words, in reminders, in opening eyes and ears to a truth that one might read, see, or hear. Once I realized that Christ is supposed to speak, I asked for ears to hear as well. Even though I did hear Him; I just did not know I heard Him. I needed to learn His voice and recognize Him.

**

I was asked how does He speak

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions (I have never had a vision that I am aware of). He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.


The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.



(As for testing the inspired expression... anything that is in conflict with what Christ teaches cannot be true. Also Christ (truth) comes from love (God), so nothing that He says will be in conflict with love. Especially since the law that is written upon our hearts in the new covenant is the law of love.)


**

I do not expect anyone to take my word for these things. I do not take the word of others for what they claim came from Christ. I explained above what I did, what I heard from Christ TO do.

If I have shared anything that helps anyone, then great. If not, then no problem. I am not the one people should be listening to if they are following or desiring to follow Christ... I can only point TO that One: Christ Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Chosen One of Jah. Christ, who is Himself, the faithful and true witness of His Father, Jah.



If one wants to know the truth of this matter themselves... then ask Christ. That is how one can confirm for themselves. Ask for ears to hear, and in the meantime DO what He has said to do, so that you prove yourself to Him. He does not have to prove Himself to us.

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with (in) them."


(Please note that He says that they will obey HIS teaching. Not man's teaching. Not religion or religious leaders, not Paul, not the law, or anyone or anything else over Him. If we love HIM... we will obey HIM. If we love someone or something else more, then we will listen to and obey that one/thing. Including if we love our religion more than Him, although we might not realize it at the time. Including if we think the bible is the Word of God, especially when even that book states that Christ is the Word of God; and Christ himself said, "You diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.")



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, to get a sense of these things, and to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the bride SAY to you, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life."


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you, DI,

May you and/or anyone who truly wants to know that One, be given the strength to keep asking, keep knocking, keep seeking.

IMHO this is not only absurd, but the very suggestion should be a grave insult to any intelligent person.

Why?

Well, if there exists a truly benevolent loving God a sincere person should only need to ask ONCE.

Peace to you DI.

I had to ask my Lord how to respond to your words, because I was not sure what to say, myself.

What I received is the reminder that my Lord, Himself, knocks on our doors more than once, and has been doing so for the past two thousand years. Even though most of the time the door goes unanswered. Yet He continues to knock. Out of love.

Tell your Lord that there's no need to knock. The door is wide open. All he needs to do is walk in, thank me for the invite, and sit down and have a cup of tea with me. Or if he prefers I suppose we could drink some wine together. Although I'm not big on alcohol so I hope he's not a big drinker.

Maybe he could drink the wine and I'll just stick with the tea.

Two points on this that you have said:

First, your words here are in conflict with your words at the end of this post, rendering these ones hollow and false.

'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.'


Second, you have a condition attached to your invitation:

thank me for the invite

When one invites a guest to their house, does one not thank the GUEST for accepting the invitation? Is one not grateful that the GUEST has honored them by coming to visit?

Christ invites people to come to Him, to take the water of Life (holy spirit) that HE is offering for FREE. He does not demand that we thank him for the invitation if they accept. He is serving US.

(We do thank Him, because we are filled with love for Him, for what He has done for us. Because we love Him, and out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.)

So instead of giving up when it seems like we are going unanswered, we too should just knock again.

Or we could come to the rational realization that the religion is nothing more than a myth just like all the other religions of the world.

After all, think about it. If Christianity is true, then every other religion in the world is necessarily a false myth. Including Islam with their prophet Muhammad.

Since we already know that every religion on earth is a myth, why should we even suspect that one of them might actually be true?

It's far more rational to just realize that religion is a myth, pure and simple.

All religions look pretty much the same to me as well.

But Christ is not a religion.

Nor did He start a religion. Men built a religion, using Him (or some other bits of truth), sure. But Christ quoted from Isaiah (in the verse shared above) about the religious leaders of that day as well, unfortunately, of those who put their faith in those leaders:

The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.

But that point was, that I understood at least... don't assume that you were not heard and just give up. Knock again instead of giving up. Because that is what HE does. That is what LOVE does. That is what HOPE does.

**

Because we are not always going unanswered. We might not be able to receive or bear the truth just yet. We might be standing in our own way, or someone else who we look to might be standing in our way. We might not be doing what Christ said to do if we want Him to come to us. There are many things that might be standing in our way. But if we have asked, then instead of giving up, we should keep knocking, keep seeking, keep asking.

Or we can be rational and realize that there is no rational basis for such utter nonsense. Because how big of an egotistical pig would Christ need to be if he was so arrogant to demand that people jump through all his hoops precisely as he dictates? That's wouldn't be a loving God who is prepared to offer mercy and forgiveness. That would be nothing more than a hateful dictator who won't settle for anything other than absolute obedience.

No. That would simply be the truth. Because man looks to religion and religious leaders and doctrines and scholars, etc, etc... to know God, to know what to do, and how to worship... but their 'worship' is based on mere human rules that they have been taught.

Including what these religions teach about 'Jesus' and God. So people are given a false image, and that false image can stand in the way of seeing and hearing the TRUE and LIVING Image of God: Christ, Himself.

They are a false light blinding people to the true Light.

Christ is the one telling them the Truth. Out of love. Because truth comes from love.

That is what Christ does for us.

So claims a mythology that has never supplied a single solitary piece of evidence for their absurd claims. Many of which are clearly lies (like the claim that all humans deserve damnation). Nothing could be more absurd and clearly false.

Well, that One who you call a myth does what you, yourself, are unwilling to do. He does not think Himself so high, that it is one knock and done. He continues to knock out of love, and hope. Because His love does not fail.

Ours does. His does not. And love always hopes.

Remember too what Christ said, as written here:

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

These are the words of a psychopathic egotist who places total value on being obeyed. Apparently whoever said these words doesn't even have a clue of the concept of love. He seems to think that love is all about obeying his commands.

No, DI. We already obey the one we love. So if we love someone or something more than Him, we will obey that something or someone OVER Him. Even if that someone or something teaches that we should 'kill the heretic' instead of what Christ said: do not listen to them; bless those who curse you; forgive those who wrong you; give to those who ask of you, etc.


But for those who do love Him (or want to)... we would want to know if our love was failing. So we can examine ourselves, to make sure that it is Him we are listening to, his word we are keeping, Him we are loving MOST.

He serves US. He teaches US. He gave His life for US. He is bestowing a Kingdom upon US. He loves US.

But HE is our King. No wise King surrounds Himself with people who do not love Him (which will including loving his Kingdom and the subjects of that Kingdom, and all those that HE loves), and who would not keep His edicts (which if you look at the edicts, all stem from love and mercy - as this King sits in the mercy seat, gives peace, and comes from Love).


So if you want to know Him, if you want Him to come and make His home with you, if you want to belong to Him... then these are the conditions attached. For good reason. A) His edicts are true and from love. B) We are invited to sit with Him on His throne in His Kingdom.


(Beyond that as well, DI, the truth is that HE has already proven Himself to us. He does not ask of us what He has not done (or is not doing) Himself. It is we who owe Him; not the other way around.)

So not only does your favorite religion not decree the truth

I do not have a religion and no religion decrees the truth.

Christ is the Truth. He is a person; not a religion.

You can tell "Your Lord" not to bother entering my door. My door is open to a loving benevolent God. Not to deranged criminal psychopaths who are totally obsessed with demanding that everyone obey them and calling that "love".

So please tell "Your Lord" to keep as far away from me as possible. If he comes here I'll call the police.

Dear DI, your words here show that your first words were hollow to begin with.

~~~~~

P.S.

I might add that it's my understanding that this is Satan's idea of "Love" too. If you obey every command of Satan he too will "Love You".

[/quote]

The one called satan loves himself... He does not love us. He pretends to, but he is our adversary. His desire is that we will 'curse God, and die'. He serves Death. He wants to 'kill the heir and take the inheritance'.

He failed with Christ. But he continues to pursue those who belong to Christ.

Christ on the other hand gave His life that we could LIVE. Teaches mercy and love and forgiveness, and lives what He teaches. Teaches that we should serve others (because that is what He did and does for us), love even our enemies. He even shares rulership of His Kingdom with those who belong to Him, on top of inviting in those who show that they have the law (of love) written upon their hearts, made manifest in how they treat even the least of his brothers (unknowingly).


For you to compare the two, DI, only shows that you do not know Christ. That you would call good, evil. Why? Because of the truth... that if one loves Christ - truly - one will obey Him?


It is not ego. It is just truth. Whether you hear and accept, or do not hear and refrain.


May you be given ears to hear, if you wish them, to hear and know this truth.

May you also have peace,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 91 by tam]

No wise King surrounds Himself with people who do not love Him (which will including loving his Kingdom and the subjects of that Kingdom, and all those that HE loves), and who would not keep His edicts

Have to disagree with you there. If I were a king (or more precisely, a dictator), I would have in my court at least one person who does not like me at all. One who in his heart thinks of me as an enemy. However, I would hold his family, friends and other loved ones hostage. I would arrange things such that if I die or am overthrown, they die too (and in quite a horrible fashion too).
I would task this person with keeping me safe, to watching out for my other enemies. Given that he himself is an enemy, even if only in heart, he would know and understand how my other enemies think. He would understand how they would plot and plan. He would look for vulnerabilities in my defenses.

I'm going to guess that you're not used to thinking like this. I am. I've studied the great leaders of history, and have often pondered what I would do better than if ever I a leader.

[tam]

[Replying to post 91 by tam]

No wise King surrounds Himself with people who do not love Him (which will including loving his Kingdom and the subjects of that Kingdom, and all those that HE loves), and who would not keep His edicts

Have to disagree with you there. If I were a king (or more precisely, a dictator), I would have in my court at least one person who does not like me at all. One who in his heart thinks of me as an enemy. However, I would hold his family, friends and other loved ones hostage. I would arrange things such that if I die or am overthrown, they die too (and in quite a horrible fashion too).
I would task this person with keeping me safe, to watching out for my other enemies. Given that he himself is an enemy, even if only in heart, he would know and understand how my other enemies think. He would understand how they would plot and plan. He would look for vulnerabilities in my defenses.

I'm going to guess that you're not used to thinking like this. I am. I've studied the great leaders of history, and have often pondered what I would do better than if ever I a leader.

Okay, here is my honest reaction after reading that, lol:

*eyes widen* OMG.

That is... terrible.

***

On a more serious note... really? And some of you take issue with my King? My King does not kill innocents, holding them hostage so that He can reap the benefits of the 'wisdom' of an enemy that He allowed into the Kingdom in the first place. My King is wisdom. There is no love in terrorizing innocents or in killing them horribly if someone else betrays the King, and there is always then the possibility that this enemy will betray Him anyway, without regard for his loved ones, or simply because he is so tired of living in fear or his loved ones living in fear (which is not really living at all), that he and they have nothing to lose because death is preferable.

Is the King just supposed to trust that this man's love for his family will hold over his hatred for the king? Is he supposed to think that he could garner love from others, when he is capable of doing this to innocent people?


Maybe a human king would feel he needs what you have suggested. It would still be dangerous for the people this king is supposed to be protecting, as well as the king himself. You don't let an enemy in your gates. You certainly don't trust that your enemy's love for his family will hold out over his hatred for you... which will most certainly grow due to the fear you have given him and his family. His family also will hate you, and you have let them in your gates as well. In all of your studying of history did you never learn what happens when a people are kept under perpetual fear, oppression and occupation?



But Christ does not need that, dear Rik. No one can hide what is in them from Him, it is always made manifest - in word and in deed.



Peace to you Rik,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy (who has not overlooked your post before this one, but will try to get to that later)

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 93 by tam]

"That is... terrible." what could be worse? Surrounding yourself with a horde of sycophantic yes men! Then there's your heaven, as Mark Twain said: "... heaven for climate, hell for company!"

[tam]

[Replying to post 94 by H.sapiens]

Surrounding yourself with those who love you, and so will love and care for all those you love as well.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OnceConvinced]

So instead of giving up when it seems like we are going unanswered, we too should just knock again.

How long do you propose one knocks for, when there is no answer? 10 years? 20 years? a hundred years? Would that be in any way sensible?

I can speak as someone who as he started to lose his faith banged and banged on God's door, desperate and many times in tears. However no amount of banging or crying out did any good. There is a saying about madness and how the definition of it is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If knocking does no good, there's no point in continuing to knock. It makes more sense just to conclude that there is nobody behind that door.

[OnceConvinced]

All religions look pretty much the same to me as well.

But Christ is not a religion.

James disagrees with you:

Jam 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Christianity is full of religious rituals so I don't see how you can claim it's not one. Even church is full of religious rituals. So is everyday Christianity at home. Only Christians refuse to acknowledge that they are involved in religion. I see this as denial. They want to make out they are somehow special than every other religion, but those of us who aren't Christians can see that it's not any more special.

Nor did He start a religion.

Jesus was the one who set the standards for looking after people and keeping oneself from being polluted by the world. So he most definitely started up a religion. James specified it as a religion.

I'm going to start another thread on this topic.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... ceb479d2de

[tam]

[Replying to post 97 by OnceConvinced]


Instead of responding here, I would like to just link to our previous conversation, and my last response (post 17) to you on the matter there:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 3&start=10


I lose track of posts that have been in response to me as well sometimes. There are usually a lot of things going on at once on this forum.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

But Christ is not a religion.

That is absolute baloney. In fact, you wouldn't even have the scriptural rhetoric that you use to belittle and accuse others like me in Jesus' name, if it wasn't for the religious dogma of Christianity.

Well, that One who you call a myth does what you, yourself, are unwilling to do. He does not think Himself so high, that it is one knock and done. He continues to knock out of love, and hope. Because His love does not fail.

No magical demigod has ever knocked on my door.

You keep making up absolute nonsense and posting it as if it represent some sort of actual truth.

Doesn't Christianity itself teach you not to lie?

Who are you to proclaim that the demigod Jesus has ever knocked on my door in the first place?

Are you claiming to have divine knowledge of what the demigod Jesus actually does?

All I see coming from you are totally empty claims that have absolutely no basis in truth.

Not only are you bearing false witness against me by proclaiming that Jesus is knocking at my door repeatedly, but you are bearing false witness against me by insinuating that I have been ignoring those knocks.

You are using this extremely accusatory CULT in precisely the manner which makes it so repulsive. You are attempting to pass judgements on others proclaiming that if they don't believe in your imaginary demigod, then they are the ones who are being insincere and rejecting God.

IMHO, that very tactic is the most underhanded and insincere tactic any religious zealot can possibly employ.

Can you show me where Jesus taught any of his disciple to go around accusing people of rejecting God?

And if not, then where did you get the idea that you should do this in Jesus' name?

No, DI. We already obey the one we love. So if we love someone or something more than Him, we will obey that something or someone OVER Him. Even if that someone or something teaches that we should 'kill the heretic' instead of what Christ said: do not listen to them; bless those who curse you; forgive those who wrong you; give to those who ask of you, etc.


But for those who do love Him (or want to)... we would want to know if our love was failing. So we can examine ourselves, to make sure that it is Him we are listening to, his word we are keeping, Him we are loving MOST.

He serves US. He teaches US. He gave His life for US. He is bestowing a Kingdom upon US. He loves US.

All of that is nothing more than hearsay superstitious rumors. There is absolutely no reason why I should believe any of it. And therefore I would have no reason to "Love Jesus".

Also you claim that "He gave his life for us". What nonsense. Even this fable has Jesus being resurrected and attaining eternal life. So the claim that he gave his life for anyone is a bogus claim. His supposed death would have been a "Bounced Check".

Besides this, any God who would have designed a means of salvation where we need to condone having his only begotten Son crucified on our behalf in penal substitution, would be a God who hates our guts. Certainly not a God who loves us.

A God who truly loves us would have provided a way for use to make our own restitution for any wrongs we may have been guilty. Forcing us to accept the crucifixion of his innocent Son on our behalf would be an extremely hateful thing to do to us.

So I totally disagree with your concept of the meaning of "Love".

But HE is our King. No wise King surrounds Himself with people who do not love Him (which will including loving his Kingdom and the subjects of that Kingdom, and all those that HE loves), and who would not keep His edicts (which if you look at the edicts, all stem from love and mercy - as this King sits in the mercy seat, gives peace, and comes from Love).

A King is an earthly position of mortal men. Mortal men who are Kings require the devotion of their subjects because it is from their subjects that they obtain their power.

A King who has no subjects has no power.

So are you suggesting that Jesus needs devoted subjects in order to obtain power?

If not, then why call him a King?

That idea came into being precisely because Jesus was claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, who was indeed supposed to become the King of the Jews. But Jesus never became King.

So the whole thing turned out to be a false superstition about Jesus in the first place.

So if you want to know Him, if you want Him to come and make His home with you, if you want to belong to Him... then these are the conditions attached. For good reason. A) His edicts are true and from love. B) We are invited to sit with Him on His throne in His Kingdom

Why would I want any of those things?

Also what good is a so-called "God" who obtains his POWER and GLORY based on how many subjects he has serving under him?

This whole religion is based entirely upon this medieval concept of Kings obtaining power by having loyal devoted subjects. And that ideology has clearly been pushed over onto the Jesus myth.

No real God would be dependent upon having loyal devoted subjects.

So this is a red flag that should reveal to you the fallacy of this religion.

(Beyond that as well, DI, the truth is that HE has already proven Himself to us. He does not ask of us what He has not done (or is not doing) Himself. It is we who owe Him; not the other way around.)

Are you kidding me?

If this demigod Jesus is our "Creator God" then he is absolutely totally responsible for having created this impossible predicament that we would supposedly be in.

He would be the most immoral God we could imagine having. He would nothing more than a Demon who lusts to rule over us and have us worship him, and all he would have done is place us in an impossible situation to where we would have no choice but to do this lest he hateful condemns us to some horrible fate.

This would be the worst God we could imagine.

As I have stated over many times. A truly loving God would have offered us the ability and choice to make restitution for our own wrongdoings. But your Christ would have robbed us from that respect. He has created a situation where we have no choice but to cower down to his authority lest he's be exceedingly cruel and hateful toward us.

There is no love in that scenario at all.

I do not have a religion and no religion decrees the truth.

Christ is the Truth. He is a person; not a religion.

There is no living Christ. All that exists are hearsay rumors about him. Rumors that you have already quoted from in an attempt to belittle and accuse me in his name.

And please don't proclaim that you "Know a living Christ" unless you are prepared to actually produce him, and not merely use him to pass horrible accusations and judgements on other people in his name. All the while he remains totally invisible and non-existent.

Dear DI, your words here show that your first words were hollow to begin with.

And there you go again, making personal accusations. I should actually report this remark.

You're not following the logic of the conversation. At different times I am responding to different things that you have claimed.

Look at what I had said:

I said,

You can tell "Your Lord" not to bother entering my door. My door is open to a loving benevolent God. Not to deranged criminal psychopaths who are totally obsessed with demanding that everyone obey them and calling that "love".

So please tell "Your Lord" to keep as far away from me as possible. If he comes here I'll call the police.

That does not make my first words "hollow". My first words were addressing a possible benevolent loving God. However, these words above were addressing a "Lord" that you had described that could not be called Loving or Benevolent.

When I speak of "Your Lord" here, I was speaking of the Jesus you have created in this conversation. NOT the Jesus that had been described by the Christian New Testament.

So, try to keep track of what points I'm actually addressing please.

The "Lord" that you continually describe appears to me to be demon that you claim cannot be escaped from.

The one called satan loves himself... He does not love us. He pretends to, but he is our adversary. His desire is that we will 'curse God, and die'. He serves Death. He wants to 'kill the heir and take the inheritance'.

But that's exactly how you describe "Jesus". According to you Jesus couldn't care less about me. All he cares about is whether or not I LOVE HIM.

That's what you have been preaching to me whether you realize it or not.

So as far as I can see, the Jesus you have created is a Jesus who only loves himself and demands that everyone else must love him as well.

That's exactly the same as the description of Satan.

If Jesus loved me he wouldn't be making all the hateful demands on me that you proclaim he is making. In fact, if he truly loved me he would allow me to make restitution for my own wrong doings. That's all I ask, but in Christianity that is totally forbidden. It's not an option.

Christ on the other hand gave His life that we could LIVE.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but that very claim of Christianity makes absolutely no sense.

A God who HAD to have his only begotten Son crucified as our penal substitution, would be a helpless God who was forced into an act of desperation beyond his own control or wishes. And that would be an utterly inept and helpless God.

A God who b]CHOSE[/b] to have his only begotten Son crucified as our penal substitution via his own FREE WILL CHOICE when this wasn't at all necessary, would be a malevolent God who is unworthy of our love or worship.

So if your whole basis of Christianity requires this mandatory Penal Substation of Jesus for our sake, then I can only conclude that you either believe our creator is completely inept and helpless to do any better, or you accept his immoral malevolent ways.

I solve this entire problem by simply recognizing that no decent God would behave this way, and thus these religions claims must necessarily be a false religion.

This solves the problem completely with nothing left to explain.

The Penal Substation apology solves nothing. It merely demands that our creator is either helpless or grossly malevolent himself.

For you to compare the two, DI, only shows that you do not know Christ. That you would call good, evil. Why? Because of the truth... that if one loves Christ - truly - one will obey Him?

But there you go again with this obsession with "obedience". Since when is love defined by obedience? If you refuse to obey me does that mean that you don't love me?

In fact, if we must always obey the ones we love then in order for Christ to love us he must then obey us!

See how your definition of love makes no sense?

It's simply makes no sense.

If you claim that we can't love Jesus unless we are willing to obey him, then the same must hold true for him. He can't claim to love us unless he is willing to obey us.

So much for that ideology.

It is not ego. It is just truth. Whether you hear and accept, or do not hear and refrain.

May you be given ears to hear, if you wish them, to hear and know this truth.

Oh please. Is that the kind of rhetoric that you have accepted?

I've heard everything you've said, and I've considered it all. None of it makes any sense. It's a religious cult that attempt to demand "Obedience" to it's very own CULT in the name of Jesus, proclaiming that if you refuse to obey, then Jesus will not LOVE YOU!

How can you not see the gross dishonesty of this religious cult?

If Jesus loves me he will OBEY me!

That has to be TRUE, because according to you that's your definition of LOVE.

If Jesus refuses to obey me, then he can't claim to love me. By your very own definition of love.

Your whole paradigm makes absolutely no sense.

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 99 by Divine Insight]

Moderator Final Warning

DI, the rhetoric and condemnation is unacceptable. You have received numerous warning and have been on Suspension. This may trigger Banishment vote by Admin and Moderators.

Please review the Rules.


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