Critieria for a Belief in Christ?

[Divine Insight]

What should the Christian churches hold up as the criteria to determine whether someone truly believes in the Christ?

Shouldn't the criteria they hold up be based upon the words attributed to the Christ himself?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Doesn't this scripture itself basically demand that anyone who claims to believe on Christ but cannot do the things that Christ said they would be able to do, be evidence that their claim to believe on Christ is without merit?

Shouldn't every Christian who claims to believe on Christ, be able to do the things that Christ himself had proclaimed they should be able to do?

Shouldn't we be going to Christian churches to be healed instead of going to hospitals? Shouldn't we be rushing our dead children to the Christian church to be raised from the dead by those who believe on Christ.

If we ourselves are Christians who believe on Christ shouldn't we be able to raise our own loved ones from the dead? As well as raising total strangers from the dead too?

Didn't Mother Teressa draw a valid conclusion when she realized that she believed on Christ with all her heart, soul, and mind, yet HIS very criteria and promises for what this belief should cause her to be able to do through him was totally empty and devoid of any truth?

Wasn't her conclusion that "Jesus you must not be true" a valid conclusion?

Surely a girl who had devoted entire her life to becoming the bride of Christ as a nun believed on Christ. Yet nothing that he had promised came to pass.

How can Christians claim to even believe in Christ when they can't do the things he himself had proclaimed they should be able to do?

And some of them go far beyond this and actually claim to know Christ in a very personal relationship. Surely they should be able to do the things that Christ proclaimed they should be able to do.

Doesn't John 14:12 and other verses that follow it pretty much demonstrate that there can be nothing to these ancient claims?

[13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Where on earth are any of these promises being fulfilled?

Even the Catholic Pope himself cannot do the sorts of things that had been attributed to Christ.

Can the Pope heal the sick? Can the Pope raise the dead? Is the Pope doing greater works than Christ is said to have done?

According to the very words attributed to Christ, if the Pope merely believes on Jesus that should be sufficient for the Pope to be able to do all of these things, yet he can't do any of them.

Why is that?

Why is it that Christians can't do what their very own Christ had proclaimed they should be able to do?

[Peds nurse]

What should the Christian churches hold up as the criteria to determine whether someone truly believes in the Christ?

Shouldn't the criteria they hold up be based upon the words attributed to the Christ himself?

Hey DI!!!!
Why do the church's need criteria to determine whether or not someone is a Christian? We are all welcome in His house, and not a single person setting in any pew is righteous on their own.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Doesn't this scripture itself basically demand that anyone who claims to believe on Christ but cannot do the things that Christ said they would be able to do, be evidence that their claim to believe on Christ is without merit?

I don't really think He is talking about raising the dead or feeding 5000. Peter asked Him to show them the Father. Jesus replied that He and the Father are one unit. To know Jesus is to know God himself. For those who believe, God gives us the Holy Spirit, and through that, we will know Him. Our lives will be evidence of His existence as God works in and through us.

Shouldn't every Christian who claims to believe on Christ, be able to do the things that Christ himself had proclaimed they should be able to do?

We shall love God with all our heart, soul, body, and mind, and love others.

Shouldn't we be going to Christian churches to be healed instead of going to hospitals? Shouldn't we be rushing our dead children to the Christian church to be raised from the dead by those who believe on Christ.

Christ did not come to earth to preform miracles, He came to earth to show us the very nature of God. His miracles reflected the power of God, and what is to come.
There will be no need for hospitals in Heaven.

Didn't Mother Teressa draw a valid conclusion when she realized that she believed on Christ with all her heart, soul, and mind, yet HIS very criteria and promises for what this belief should cause her to be able to do through him was totally empty and devoid of any truth?

Did you read her biography? She spread the love of God in a very poor country. Sure, she questioned the presence of God, but that doesn't mean He didn't exist in her life.

Wasn't her conclusion that "Jesus you must not be true" a valid conclusion?

That was not her conclusion, that was her question. She begged God to reveal himself to her, and we know not how exactly that was done, especially during her last days of life. Mother Teresa believed that suffering brought people closer to God, and that definitely is not the case.

Surely a girl who had devoted entire her life to becoming the bride of Christ as a nun believed on Christ. Yet nothing that he had promised came to pass.

My friend, He did keep His promises for her. She was a very strong woman, and gave many people hope. God used this woman in the most extraordinary ways. The lives she touched in the name of our Father are numerous. I am sure she is continuing to experience the greatest promise of all.

How can Christians claim to even believe in Christ when they can't do the things he himself had proclaimed they should be able to do?

We can. We love God, and through that love show others who He is by loving them.

And some of them go far beyond this and actually claim to know Christ in a very personal relationship. Surely they should be able to do the things that Christ proclaimed they should be able to do.

By pointing the way to our Father.

[13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

And if we ask with selfish motives, to have gain for ourselves, He will not honor our prayers.

Why do we want to bring people back to life? It is because WE miss them, and WE don't want to be without them. God isn't a Genie God who answers our wishes. He is a loving God, who will give everyone life, if they so choose.

[Divine Insight]

What should the Christian churches hold up as the criteria to determine whether someone truly believes in the Christ?

Shouldn't the criteria they hold up be based upon the words attributed to the Christ himself?

Hey DI!!!!
Why do the church's need criteria to determine whether or not someone is a Christian? We are all welcome in His house, and not a single person setting in any pew is righteous on their own.

It's not a criteria to determine whether anyone is a "Christian", or whether or not they are even righteous. It would merely be a criteria to determine whether anyone who claims to "Believe on Christ" should be believed.

Why not use Christ's own criteria for that?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Doesn't this scripture itself basically demand that anyone who claims to believe on Christ but cannot do the things that Christ said they would be able to do, be evidence that their claim to believe on Christ is without merit?

I don't really think He is talking about raising the dead or feeding 5000. Peter asked Him to show them the Father. Jesus replied that He and the Father are one unit. To know Jesus is to know God himself. For those who believe, God gives us the Holy Spirit, and through that, we will know Him. Our lives will be evidence of His existence as God works in and through us.

This seems to me to be in denial of that scripture. Christ said that those who believe on him will do "Greater Works" than he. Not lesser works.

I'm only going by words attributed to the Christ himself.

Shouldn't every Christian who claims to believe on Christ, be able to do the things that Christ himself had proclaimed they should be able to do?

We shall love God with all our heart, soul, body, and mind, and love others.

How does this excuse the Christ's claim that those who believe on him will do greater works than even he had done?

I don't see the connection here.

Shouldn't we be going to Christian churches to be healed instead of going to hospitals? Shouldn't we be rushing our dead children to the Christian church to be raised from the dead by those who believe on Christ.

Christ did not come to earth to preform miracles, He came to earth to show us the very nature of God. His miracles reflected the power of God, and what is to come.
There will be no need for hospitals in Heaven.

Again, I don't see how your comments here serve as an explanation for why the words attributed to Christ are not being fulfilled?

According to the scriptures those who believe on him will do greater works than he. What does that have to do with not having hospitals in some imagined heaven?

Didn't Mother Teressa draw a valid conclusion when she realized that she believed on Christ with all her heart, soul, and mind, yet HIS very criteria and promises for what this belief should cause her to be able to do through him was totally empty and devoid of any truth?

Did you read her biography? She spread the love of God in a very poor country. Sure, she questioned the presence of God, but that doesn't mean He didn't exist in her life.

Well, for someone who believed on Christ she certainly wasn't able to do anywhere near the works he had performed.

So again, how does this support the promises the promises made by Christ. If anything Mother Teressa is a prime example of how false those promises are.

Wasn't her conclusion that "Jesus you must not be true" a valid conclusion?

That was not her conclusion, that was her question. She begged God to reveal himself to her, and we know not how exactly that was done, especially during her last days of life. Mother Teresa believed that suffering brought people closer to God, and that definitely is not the case.

I don't see how any of this excuses, or explains why the promises made by the Christ in the Holy Scriptures have not been fulfilled in a single solitary human being since Christ had lived.

I'm pretty sure that just about all Christians agree that no human has ever performed greater works than were attributed to the Christ in the New Testament. For if anyone had been attributed greater works he or she would have surely been at least as popular historically.

Surely a girl who had devoted entire her life to becoming the bride of Christ as a nun believed on Christ. Yet nothing that he had promised came to pass.

My friend, He did keep His promises for her. She was a very strong woman, and gave many people hope. God used this woman in the most extraordinary ways. The lives she touched in the name of our Father are numerous. I am sure she is continuing to experience the greatest promise of all.

Are you suggesting that Mother Teressa had performed "Greater Works" than the Christ?

And if not, then what's the point of mentioning how many lives she might have "touched"?

How can Christians claim to even believe in Christ when they can't do the things he himself had proclaimed they should be able to do?

We can. We love God, and through that love show others who He is by loving them.

The issue here is about "Greater Works". Not about showing people love.

Are you suggesting that anyone has done "Greater Works" than Jesus Christ?

Even though the Christ himself is claimed to have said that those who believe on him would do greater works, I'm willing to bet that most Christians wouldn't even allow that such a thing could be possible.

I'm willing to bet that most Christians would argue passionately against any claim that anyone has ever done greater works than Jesus Christ.

And yet, that's in direct violation of what the Christ is claimed to have promised in the Holy Scriptures.

This seems to be to be an extremely problematic point for this religion to have to deal with.

And some of them go far beyond this and actually claim to know Christ in a very personal relationship. Surely they should be able to do the things that Christ proclaimed they should be able to do.

By pointing the way to our Father.

That's not good enough.

We're looking for an example of someone who has done "Greater Works" than Christ, remember?

Didn't the Christ point the way to the Father? You could hardly do the same and call that "Greater Works".

[13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

And if we ask with selfish motives, to have gain for ourselves, He will not honor our prayers.

So are you suggesting that Mother Teressa had "selfish motives"?

How about Pope Francis? Selfish motives getting in the way again?

Why do we want to bring people back to life? It is because WE miss them, and WE don't want to be without them. God isn't a Genie God who answers our wishes. He is a loving God, who will give everyone life, if they so choose.

What's the point in healing the sick then either?

Just because we don't want people to suffer?

Why does God want them to suffer?

I don't see where anything in your response to this thread addresses the question of why no one has ever performed "Greater Works" than the Christ, when he promised that those who believe in him would do precisely that.

Also, why promise people, "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.", if there is absolutely no intention of keeping this promise?

I haven't seen a reasonable excuse for these broken promises yet.

Why make them if they aren't going to be kept?

I thought Jesus Christ could be trusted to speak TRUTH?

If the truth is that he's not going to do any thing a believer asks in his name, then why make that promise in the first place?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

Louis Pasteur did greater works than Christ. Quite a few people have, even if you believe.
Just making an observation.

[JehovahsWitness]

Shouldn't the criteria they hold up be based upon the words attributed to the Christ himself?

Yes, this is true. The bible says Christ left a model for Christians to follow his steps closely. So a Christian is to try their very best to live in a way that adheres to the laws and principles Christ left for them as depicted in scripture (The bible).

What should the Christian churches hold up as the criteria to determine whether someone truly believes in the Christ?

That said, it is not for any group of human Church leaders to decide the sincerity of someones personal belief as that would involve reading their heart (by heart I mean inner thoughts and motivations). What they can (and should do by bible law) is judge if that person professes faith and lives in line with bible standards. If they do they would qualify to be baptized and be accepted members of the congregation.




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


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CHRISTIANITY , CHRISTIAN and ...CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS

[catnip]

What should the Christian churches hold up as the criteria to determine whether someone truly believes in the Christ?

Shouldn't the criteria they hold up be based upon the words attributed to the Christ himself?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Doesn't this scripture itself basically demand that anyone who claims to believe on Christ but cannot do the things that Christ said they would be able to do, be evidence that their claim to believe on Christ is without merit?

I happen to believe that this is possible--but only through sanctification, i.e. "perfection", as in the definition of the catholic faith.

We actually can't prove that miracles don't happen.

Shouldn't every Christian who claims to believe on Christ, be able to do the things that Christ himself had proclaimed they should be able to do?

I don't think it is a shallow faith. I use the example of Peter attempting to walk on water. Of course, Peter himself could not walk on water--but Christ accused him of not relying on faith. It gives a different definition of faith than the one you operate on.

Shouldn't we be going to Christian churches to be healed instead of going to hospitals? Shouldn't we be rushing our dead children to the Christian church to be raised from the dead by those who believe on Christ.

If we ourselves are Christians who believe on Christ shouldn't we be able to raise our own loved ones from the dead? As well as raising total strangers from the dead too?

Didn't Mother Teressa draw a valid conclusion when she realized that she believed on Christ with all her heart, soul, and mind, yet HIS very criteria and promises for what this belief should cause her to be able to do through him was totally empty and devoid of any truth?

I am not convinced that it was unfounded. I could not work 18 hours a day relentlessly and without suffering exhaustion. Perhaps it was that she was increasingly trying to do it by herself, more or less, that it became unfounded in her mind. What began her journey was a vision, but there vision and experience was never repeated.

Wasn't her conclusion that "Jesus you must not be true" a valid conclusion?

Surely a girl who had devoted entire her life to becoming the bride of Christ as a nun believed on Christ. Yet nothing that he had promised came to pass.

How can Christians claim to even believe in Christ when they can't do the things he himself had proclaimed they should be able to do?

It may merely reflect that she was disappointed that her efforts were not better rewarded, if you will. Or the continuing silence that she experienced wore down her faith. Faith is a strange animal.

And some of them go far beyond this and actually claim to know Christ in a very personal relationship. Surely they should be able to do the things that Christ proclaimed they should be able to do.

Doesn't John 14:12 and other verses that follow it pretty much demonstrate that there can be nothing to these ancient claims?

[13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
[14] If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Where on earth are any of these promises being fulfilled?

Even the Catholic Pope himself cannot do the sorts of things that had been attributed to Christ.

Can the Pope heal the sick? Can the Pope raise the dead? Is the Pope doing greater works than Christ is said to have done?

According to the very words attributed to Christ, if the Pope merely believes on Jesus that should be sufficient for the Pope to be able to do all of these things, yet he can't do any of them.

I don't think there is anything mere about it. And some popes have had miracles attributed to them. That is a necessary requirement for (Catholic) cannonization. Note that I am not Catholic and there are few popes that I have thought were inspired. Pope Francis has impressed me, however.

I think that a Pope would be one of the least likely to do any miracles because of their position. It would be very difficult to maintain complete humility in the face of all that admiration.

Why is that?

Maybe because faith has been rendered into a meaningless word, devoid of real meaning.

Why is it that Christians can't do what their very own Christ had proclaimed they should be able to do?

Perhaps it is more that there are no egotistical claims to have done so. There is no pride in faith and pride is in opposition to faith--in other words, pride is a block between man and God. There is not space available to explain further.

[catnip]

[quote="catnip"]
[quote="Divine Insight"]

Ack! I must have clicked quote rather than edit..

[Divine Insight]

Shouldn't the criteria they hold up be based upon the words attributed to the Christ himself?

Yes, this is true. The bible says Christ left a model for Christians to follow his steps closely. So a Christian is to try their very best to live in a way that adheres to the laws and principles Christ left for them as depicted in scripture (The bible).

What should the Christian churches hold up as the criteria to determine whether someone truly believes in the Christ?

That said, it is not for any group of human Church leaders to decide the sincerity of someones personal belief as that would involve reading their heart (by heart I mean inner thoughts and motivations). What they can (and should do by bible law) is judge if that person professes faith and lives in line with bible standards. If they do they would qualify to be baptized and be accepted members of the congregation.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Why should a Christian Church judge anyone?

Did Jesus teach his disciples to go around judging others?

[Divine Insight]

Perhaps it is more that there are no egotistical claims to have done so. There is no pride in faith and pride is in opposition to faith--in other words, pride is a block between man and God. There is not space available to explain further.

The only ego involved would be God's ego. Besides, isn't that what Christ has preached? That he would do these things so the Father may be "Glorified".

This is a God who loves to be egotistically worshiped and Glorified.

If the Pope performed public miracles there is no reason for the Pope to take credit for that. On the contrary, he's supposed to be a vessel of God's interaction with humankind. So everything the Pope does should be seen as "Glory to God". And according to Jesus, and the rest of the Bible, the Biblical God is totally obsessed with being Glorified and apparently lusts after Glory.

Supposedly the best thing we can do for this God is Glorify its ego.

And this is what Jesus had said:

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

It would seem to me that Jesus really dropped the ball big time when he has such a great opportunity to Glorify God through Mother Teressa and failed to do so.

Mother Teressa certainly can't be blamed. She was totally open to being a vessel for the Glory of God.

I can't imagine her trying to take personal egotistical credit for healing the sick if her prayers had been answered. Surely she would have given all Credit and Glory to Jesus and the Father God.

What else could she have done? Proclaim that she was doing all this magic on her own power totally independent from Jesus or God?

Hardly.

Jesus couldn't have found a better opportunity to Glorify God than through Mother Teressa as a devoted Catholic Nun, and he sure did blow that one big time. Instead of glorifying God through Mother Teressa he ended up causing Mother Teressa to be the cause of serious doubt that this God even exist at all.

How does that make any sense?

A Jesus who claims to want to Glorify God through people and then refuses to do so when given the perfect opportunity?

This seems to be rock-solid proof that the religion cannot possibly be true as described by these scriptures.

[catnip]

Perhaps it is more that there are no egotistical claims to have done so. There is no pride in faith and pride is in opposition to faith--in other words, pride is a block between man and God. There is not space available to explain further.

The only ego involved would be God's ego. Besides, isn't that what Christ has preached? That he would do these things so the Father may be "Glorified".

There are some strange things in the scriptures. But our God is not Zeus and God isn't egotistical. Yes, I have had even Christians argue against me for saying that our God is humble, but we do have a humble God. Sorry.

This is a God who loves to be egotistically worshiped and Glorified.

Nope. Seriously not. We are to worship God in spirit and in truth. It is in Matt 6 how to pray. Jesus taught no corporate worship.

If the Pope performed public miracles there is no reason for the Pope to take credit for that. On the contrary, he's supposed to be a vessel of God's interaction with humankind. So everything the Pope does should be seen as "Glory to God". And according to Jesus, and the rest of the Bible, the Biblical God is totally obsessed with being Glorified and apparently lusts after Glory.

All I can say here--despite the fact I already pointed out that humility is key and it would be difficult for popes, bishops or even priests to maintain that when all these sheep are busily making them feel self-important--is that God is no show-off.

Are you going by the Gospel of John? Could it be that the author(s) of some of the books of the Bible love God so much they think this is important and relate it?

Supposedly the best thing we can do for this God is Glorify its ego.

And this is what Jesus had said:

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

It would seem to me that Jesus really dropped the ball big time when he has such a great opportunity to Glorify God through Mother Teressa and failed to do so.

Mother Teressa certainly can't be blamed. She was totally open to being a vessel for the Glory of God.

I can't imagine her trying to take personal egotistical credit for healing the sick if her prayers had been answered. Surely she would have given all Credit and Glory to Jesus and the Father God.

What else could she have done? Proclaim that she was doing all this magic on her own power totally independent from Jesus or God?

Hardly.

Jesus couldn't have found a better opportunity to Glorify God than through Mother Teressa as a devoted Catholic Nun, and he sure did blow that one big time. Instead of glorifying God through Mother Teressa he ended up causing Mother Teressa to be the cause of serious doubt that this God even exist at all.

How does that make any sense?

That's between Mother Theresa and God. I haven't got a clue. I felt sorry for her, but she seems to have lost her connection. Jesus talked to her on the train and never again. But long silences are not uncommon and many people have endured them. I can't make any judgments as to why, but that it is a well known phenomenon of the religious.

From Christianity today, http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/201 ... -soul.html:
St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila envisioned the dark night as a time of spiritual purging and illumination, but they also understood that psychological dynamics are often at play in a dark night experience. Though they lacked modern categories and definitions, they were some of the most adept psychological minds of their day. St. John taught that melancholia, or depression, would often accompany the dark night. For him, it wasn't an either/or, but more often a both/and. The spiritual and psychological are interconnected.

A Jesus who claims to want to Glorify God through people and then refuses to do so when given the perfect opportunity?

This seems to be rock-solid proof that the religion cannot possibly be true as described by these scriptures.

No it isn't. That could be vainglory. Can you imagine that if the Pope could work obvious miracles, how people would begin to worship him? Crediting him and not God with the miracles?

We give glory to God not only with our lips, but in our lives.



Magnificat. St. Luke i. 46.

MY soul doth magnify the Lord, * and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded * the lowliness of his handmaiden.
For behold, from henceforth * all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath magnified me; * and holy is his Name.
And his mercy is on them that fear him * throughout all generations.
He hath showed strength with his arm; * he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat, * and hath exalted the humble and meek.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; * and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel; * as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed, for ever.