Evidence for your beliefs

[Todd]

Hi,

This is my first post and Topic on this site, so I'll quickly introduce myself.
My name is Todd, 15 years old live in Sydney and I'm Christian and happily got saved about 2 months ago.

So anyway, I think this is a similar topic to something was put on before but anyway, I'd like to try it again.

I want people on this to state their belief and give evidence for why they think it is right or why they believe in it.

I myself as stated above am Christian, I don't know how many people have heard of this but before that I was an evolutionist, take note of what I say here evolutionists, "I didn't WANT to believe in God, because I was afraid of going to Hell for sinning, so I decided that if I believed there wasn't a God there wasn't a hell to possibly end up going to when I die, so I chose something that ruled God out, it took me ages but after 3 years I realised how pathetic evolution is because although I DID believe in it I never saw any proof of it" So anyway after this, I became Christian and saw proofs of it straight away, I've had a lot of my personal prayers answered and there's easily much proof in the bible with so many fulfilled prophecies and SCIENTIFIC FACTS that support the Bible, so thats my reason for trust in the Lord now, I'd write something longer but I'm tired right now.

Anyway, everyone else, I wanna hear your thoughts

[The Hungry Atheist]

Well, how about you get us started here? Can you give us any specifics about the things that convinced you of the truth of Christianity? What prayers have been answered, what particular scientific facts provided sufficient evidence for you?

[jwu]

Welcome to the forum!

I myself as stated above am Christian, I don't know how many people have heard of this but before that I was an evolutionist, take note of what I say here evolutionists, "I didn't WANT to believe in God, because I was afraid of going to Hell for sinning, so I decided that if I believed there wasn't a God there wasn't a hell to possibly end up going to when I die, so I chose something that ruled God out, it took me ages but after 3 years I realised how pathetic evolution is because although I DID believe in it I never saw any proof of it" So anyway after this, I became Christian and saw proofs of it straight away, I've had a lot of my personal prayers answered and there's easily much proof in the bible with so many fulfilled prophecies and SCIENTIFIC FACTS that support the Bible, so thats my reason for trust in the Lord now, I'd write something longer but I'm tired right now.

Evolution does not equal atheism. There are plenty of Christians who think that the theory of evolution is accurate.

jwu

[Jose]

jwu is right. Evolution does not rule out God, although there are evolutionists who hold that view. God could be directing the mutations that occur in DNA, or in any of a number of ways directing how it works. Or, as many Christians believe, he set up the world so that evolution would work the way it does. In many theistic world views, evolution and God are entirely compatible.

There are other threads in this forum for discussing the evidence for evolution. Here, it might be good to follow the suggestion of The Hungry Atheist, and ask what evidence leads us to believe Christianity. What I have heard mostly is pretty much that the Bible says it, so it must be true. But other books say other things, so we need some kind of criteria for deciding among them.

[Todd]

ok

well The Hungry Atheist asked for me to state a couple of things that give me proof of God. I'll start with a couple of facts that have been proven off the top of my head.Take note that the Bible was written about 2400yrs ago.
1)The Bible says that the Earth is round. Compare this to what mankind used to think, they used to think it was square but the bible was proven right due but science.
2)The Bible states the balance of the clouds:being pulled up by hot air, but pulled down by gravity, and once again this is proven by Science.
3)In the book of Job, God says to Job. Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Orion's belt is slowly expanding, and the stars are moving away from each other God knew this when he told Job, because he made them.

Now a couple of personal prayers that have been answered. Some are small, some are big.
1) One I'll always remember is I prayed and asked that I'd meet a girl whom I'd have a successful relationship with. About 4 days later, I met the wonderful girl who is now my girlfriend.
2) Hehe, this one's funny. I was walking home from the shops one day, and behind me was this woman walking with her baby and her baby was screaming its lungs out. So in my head, I asked God to satisfy the baby's needs, and about 2 seconds later, it stopped crying and there wasn't a single sound from it all the way back.
3) One of my friends was in a serious accident a little while ago. He had little chance of living, I prayed that God would help him safely through and help him to stay alive, and now my friend still isn't coming to school but he's out of the coma he was in and in pretty good condition.

Those are my main proofs, or reasons for belief in God, so I'll leave it there for now.

[The Hungry Atheist]

Hi Todd, thanks for the response. Your belief seems to be based on two particular things you've observed:

A) The Bible provides insights which were unavailable to mankind at the time of its authorship, and thus can only be the result of divine inspiration from God.

B) God has answered your prayers; you have asked for things to happen and your requests have been granted, in a way which could not have occurred by mere chance.

These things would indeed both provide good evidence for the existence of God and the accuracy of the Bible. However, to answer your original question about why I believe what I do, I guess it's because I simply have a different interpretation of the above factors than you. I don't consider the Bible to be perfectly accurate or particularly insightful, and I think that people's prayers apparently being answered can be explained by things like random chance, wishful thinking, the placebo effect, confirmation bias, and so on.

If you don't mind me asking a few more questions about your reasons for believing (Yeah, I'm awkward like that):

1. Can you show some evidence to confirm that people used to believe the Earth was square? Also, Ezekiel 7:2 mentions "the four corners of the land". How does this fit your theory?
2. Where in the Bible does it say this, and how can you be sure that it's really describing what has now been confirmed by science? Does it specifically mention the attractive force between molecules that we call gravity?
3. Every star in existence is moving further away from each other, as the Universe expands. I can't find much in the rest of the chapter which has later been verified by science, and I don't find anything particularly profound in the Orion comment either. Job 39:9 says: "Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?" Have unicorns also since been verified by the observations of science?

This isn't all directly related to Creationism or Evolution - perhaps it should be moved elsewhere, or if you want to limit this discussion to beliefs regarding those subjects, Todd, let us know and we'll try and get back on track.

[Nyril]

1)The Bible says that the Earth is round. Compare this to what mankind used to think, they used to think it was square but the bible was proven right due but science.

What about Daniel, Chapter 2:5?

The stone became "a great mountain" that "filled the whole earth." This could only be possible on a flat, disc-shaped earth.

Or Daniel, Chapter 4:10-11

Daniel's tree is tall enough to be seen from "the end of all the earth." Only on a flat earth would this be possible.

Or Matthew 4:8?

The devil kidnaps Jesus and takes him up to the top of the temple, and then to the top of "an exceedingly high mountain," high enough to see "all the kingdoms of the world." I guess the earth was flat in those days.

(I'm not ashamed to admit I cannot recall any passage of the bible at request, quotes taken from http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

Basically, a number of events are described in the bible that are consistent with the idea that the Earth is flat. If you could please post this specific verse, much could be furthered.

2)The Bible states the balance of the clouds:being pulled up by hot air, but pulled down by gravity, and once again this is proven by Science.

Could I have the verse please?

3)In the book of Job, God says to Job. Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Orion's belt is slowly expanding, and the stars are moving away from each other God knew this when he told Job, because he made them.

I don't agree. Indeed, I don't see anything like that in that specific verse you have cited. In context, god is saying that Job can no more understand him then he can bind the stars. For god to be putting forward that idea, why would he include half a sentence entirely off the point in an entire paragraph of lecturing the little mortal concerning the movements of the stars?

1) One I'll always remember is I prayed and asked that I'd meet a girl whom I'd have a successful relationship with. About 4 days later, I met the wonderful girl who is now my girlfriend.

Insufficent to prove a direct correlation, it is entirely possible that you expected god to provide you with a girl, so you felt sufficiently self-confidant that you took the steps needed to procure one. Nothing divine has occurred, nor anything entirely improbable. You've simply proved that if you set out to find a girlfriend, its likely that you'll have one. Thus, in this instance, prayer served as a placebo.

2) Hehe, this one's funny. I was walking home from the shops one day, and behind me was this woman walking with her baby and her baby was screaming its lungs out. So in my head, I asked God to satisfy the baby's needs, and about 2 seconds later, it stopped crying and there wasn't a single sound from it all the way back.

Did you expect the baby to cry for the rest of eternity? Did you expect it to cry for the remainder of the day? Perhaps the remainder of the hour?

I doubt it. Unless you managed to find the one baby capable of crying for the remainder of eternity (although it certainly does seem like it on an airplane) it was simply timing. The child needed to stop crying sometime, and if it had already been crying for a bit, it was likely to stop soon. In my Psychology class, this is an example of selective memory. You recall the one time prayer worked like a charm, but not the dozen times you prayed for this or that that failed entirely.

3) One of my friends was in a serious accident a little while ago. He had little chance of living, I prayed that God would help him safely through and help him to stay alive, and now my friend still isn't coming to school but he's out of the coma he was in and in pretty good condition.

Someone was in an accident and pulled through. Unless the odds of your friend's survival was nil to start with, no intervention from god was needed for such. Do the doctors get any credit for this?

[mrmufin]

Hello, Todd!

Welcome to the Debating Christianity & Religion forum. I look forward to your participation.

This is my first post and Topic on this site, so I'll quickly introduce myself.
My name is Todd, 15 years old live in Sydney and I'm Christian and happily got saved about 2 months ago.

Likewise, I am the rapidly aging mrmufin, I probably live within 100 miles of the charming and polite DC&R participant Piper Plexed, and I am curious as to what you believe you were saved from.

I want people on this to state their belief and give evidence for why they think it is right or why they believe in it.

I believe that the Beatles, even at their worst, were far superior to the Rolling Stones, even at their best. I believe that MaryAnn is much more attractive than Ginger. I believe that there are a variety of UNIX clones and derivatives that are free, flexible, scaleable and more stable than the much more expensive offerings from Microsoft. I believe that James Dean was much cooler than Elvis (Presley, but maybe not Costello). I believe that, generally, jazz is a better barometer of musicianship than classical, and the small few that have achieved excellence in both arenas --such as Keith Jarrett-- will have little company due to the vastly different musical approaches. I believe that my affirmative beliefs are a fairly shallow set, but among those beliefs is that the propents of biological evolution present their theories, evidences, and methodologies in a manner that is more coherent, consistent, and testable than the proponents of creation. All this should be tempered by my admission that I claim no expertise in understanding creationists or the many theories which comprise biological evolution. I believe that science is not religious and religion is not scientific and that's that.

[....]"I didn't WANT to believe in God, because I was afraid of going to Hell for sinning, so I decided that if I believed there wasn't a God there wasn't a hell to possibly end up going to when I die,

Whoa, hold the phone, Matilda! What impartial evidences confirm the existence of a specific god, any consequences of belief, or the spatial coordinates of hell? By impartial, I mean devoid of influence by political position, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, skin tone, surname, etc.

so I chose something that ruled God out, it took me ages but after 3 years I realised how pathetic evolution is because although I DID believe in it I never saw any proof of it"

That's an interesting statement, considering that many scientists who accept as fact --and have contributed to-- evolutionary theories have theistic beliefs. I have also noticed that the scientific community seems to consist of folks who hold a wide variety of political positions, religious beliefs, skintones, etc.; and the methodologies applied seem to deliver consistent results regardless of those factors. I have also noticed a curious similarity among most of those who discount evolution: Christianity. Whether it be a Young Earth or Old Earth model, the detractors of biological evolution almost always do so on a religious (and most often, Christian), rather than scientific, basis. Didga ever notice that?

Anyway, everyone else, I wanna hear your thoughts

If you have found peace and comfort in your life, good for you. Personally, I don't have a problem with individuals heeding philosophical guideposts, whether they're based in fact or fiction: Willy Wonka, Epicurus, John Wayne, John Galt, Jesus Christ, and Star Trek may all offer useful philosophical insights. The most obvious problems result when groups of individuals with a particular philosophical point of reference attempt to use their worldview as the sole reference point on which to base legal policy. Note that my personal belief that MaryAnn is more attractive than Ginger has never resulted in policy that serves to the detriment of dimwitted, shallow, concieted, redhead actresses named Ginger.

Again, a warm welcome to DC&R, Todd!

Regards,
mrmufin

[Jose]

I have also noticed a curious similarity among most of those who discount evolution: Christianity. Whether it be a Young Earth or Old Earth model, the detractors of biological evolution almost always do so on a religious (and most often, Christian), rather than scientific, basis.

Oddly, I've received a large number of emails over the years that "prove" that evolution is impossible--based on Hindu belief. Some of these "proofs" were once incorporated into a little pamphlet that the the ICR or some other Creationist organization was distributing...until someone pointed out that they were Hindu. Once the Christians realized this, they stopped distributing the pamphlet. Interesting. It's not evolution they are against, or they'd be happy to accept another religion's proofs as well as their own. It's Biblical theology that they are promoting--for which evolution appears to be just as much of a contradiction as Hindu philosophy.

And, of course, there's Jonathan Wells, who followed the directions of his leader (the Rev. Sun Young Moon) and obtained a PhD in biology at UC Berkeley, explicitly so that he could have "credentials" when he wrote his books against evolution. Here, it's the Moonies who dislike evolution.

Still, among most Norteamericano Creationists, it usually is the Christians who populate the anti-evolution crowd. I think that's just because there are more of them in the US than there are of other fundamentalists. So, I'd say the common theme is not so much Christianity as it is religious fundamentalism. If you accept what The Book says as Truth--regardless of which Book it is--you are at odds with what science has discovered since the Book was written.

[Lucifer]

Me? I'm agnostic because Deism could be true. However, if I don't see physical proof that God or some supernatural being exists, then at this point, I don't think he exists. Afterall, this is a physical world. I don't fear existance of a God, I just think that I don't need a God to love me to enjoy being myself. Leaders may govern people, but the universe seems to have its free reign. The only things that "govern" it are what we call physics and chemistry.

If I were to read the bible, it would be a piece of fiction. It would be read for morals, but not to be taken literally. But there's some other stuff I'd rather read than the bible. It's too long anyways.