A Compelling Post

[Zzyzx]

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This is the most outstanding post of its kind that I have read in a long time.

I was born into a Christian family but never really followed or cared about the Christian faith. Then when I was 17 I had a born again experience at a Billy Graham rally and became passion in my walk with the lord for over 40 years after that.

Prior to my acceptance of Christ as my personal savior, I would have considered myself a deist or perhaps agnostic but never an atheist.

During my born again experience and thereafter, I felt the sense and presence of the Holy Spirit throughout my life...

I had never questioned the historical documentation of the resurrection because

1) I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life as all the conviction that I needed to validate that Christ was real today as much as anytime in history past.

2) The clergy and other spiritually mature Christians I respected assured me that ample historical evidence existed both within and extra Biblical to validate this event so that I never doubted it occurring.

3) I saw many successful adults within the church I attended whom where gifted/ intelligent and all believed in the resurrection. As a result, I presumed they must have looked into this and found out what the clerical folks knew that it was true so there was never a need for me to consider doing that....

But over time some problems occurred.................

1) I was passionate about my study of science/engineering as a student. and the more I learned about earth/space sciences along with anthropology/sociobiology the more I struggled to maintain a world view based on my Biblical beliefs with the growing empirical evidence of science in direct conflict with that. However, I learned to accept science but not let it tread on my faith or that which I felt the Holy Spirit revealed to me........

But something else came up that began the process leading to where I am today.

I was born in 1954 and all through most of my decades as a Christian my faith was never challenged, questioned or debated by others in my surroundings.........but over the last decade or two with the growth of the Internet and other social media others have approached me and asked or challenged why I believe what I do (I was evangelical enough with what I believed that everyone knew that about me......I didn't try to beat people over the head with a Bible but I took every opportunity to witness the Gospel to others when I felt the Holy Spirit lead me to a situation like that.........

So when all these people began to approach me I remembered 1st Peter 3:15 and realized that I had to be ready to provide an answer to anyone asking about why I believe in what I do......

.....most of my questions came about the history of the manuscripts and canonization process of scripture of which I knew little about since I had relied on other Christians to tell me about this in a very general sense.

But since I had no way to answer those who asked about this, I began to study the process of Biblical history and the process of information exchange of the event claimed in the Bible not only from a Christian's prospective but also from a secular prospective as well to "get the other side" so to speak. I also, felt that my faith was strong enough and that if the resurrection was a fact that it would stand up to any kind of skeptical challenge so I looked at that side of the issue as well with the confidence in what I believed.

I presumed all along and it was implied in my church that the Gospels for instance were written by the people that had their names associated with them..........I envisioned them all sitting around a campfire with Christ at the end of everyday and taking down the notes of what happened in the days activities like a daily diary..........When I found out the truth of their writings from scholarly sources both Christian and secular......I was in shock........

Another factor was my relationship with the Holy Spirit............What ever truth this aspect of the triune God was suppose to reveal to me through inspiration or the words of the Bible, sometimes came up against doctrine and understanding that was in direct conflict (often with even essential salvation doctrine) with other Christians claiming their Holy Spirit revelation.........

I began to understand that I placed my faith in manuscripts of information processing that is no better than those oral stories related by people passionate in what they believe......... not for the purpose of documenting history. Like how UFO groups claim with the Roswell crash site for instance....

And I knew that the inner voice in my head was my own conscious and not something supernatural simply because there was no consistency among Christians of this revelation.

Much more along these lines challenged me about what really was going on in my effort to defend my faith and it took very little time for me to discard it after 40 plus years.....

The only lasting piece that I struggled to discard was my fear of hell..............which evidentially became nothing more than a myth like everything else once exposed to the reality of historical study.

There is not earthshattering change to my life now as I hold the world view of a scientific rationalist which sees me defined as an atheist to most I talk to about the subject..............just that I have a lot more time on Sunday mornings which I volunteer to do clean ups of the environment and help with abandoned pets and such. Otherwise, morally and socially I'm the same person but without the baggage of the an adult Santa Claus belief................

Sorry for the digression, but I think its important to know that many atheist were once born again Holy Spirit filled committed Christians at one time as well.

Not just lukewarm or social Christians..........

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 845#781845

This was in response to someone who said:

Atheists who call themselves former Christians were most likely never 'converted' into Christianity but instead were born into it. In other words, they followed Christianity for some time because that's what they were used to with their parents and throughout childhood but they did not get a chance to have the 'conversion experience' which is more profound and lasting.

Perhaps it would be wise to NOT assume that those who left Christianity were "never converted". Several members here are Ex-Christians who spent decades of their life as very devout Christians. PghPanther says it very well. Suggesting he or they were not (or that you know better how devout they were) is extremely disrespectful as well as being wrong.

[Divine Insight]

I have to chime in here and say that I am actually amazed at some of the stories of other Christians who have eventually come to the realization that the religion they have devoted the bulk of their life to is not valid.

People like PghPanther, OnceConvinced, and I'm especially impressed by Dan Barker who was a very prominent evangelical preacher most of his life but has now become a very serious and passionate about speaking out against Christianity and in favor of atheism.

These people spend larger portions of their lives following this religion, before they finally realized that it's extremely flawed.

I guess I should consider myself extremely fortunate to have discovered the fallacy of the religion relatively quickly in comparison. Any my story (which I've told many times on these forums) is almost opposite to PghPanther's story.

When I became convinced of Christianity and accepted Christ as my savior, I immediately turned to the task of the "Great Commission". And that is to teach the Gospel to every one I meet. However, in order to do this I realized that I would first need to learn precisely what the Gospel teaches, and why it makes sense. After all, if I am to answer questions as 1st Peter 3:15 had suggested in scriptures then I should be able to do so.

I was totally aware of 1st Peter 3:15. And for this reason I was not the least bit afraid to study the Bible and find all these answers. Because after all, Jesus also taught "seek and ye shall find". I was taught the the Bible contains answers to all our questions. I was also taught that the Holy Spirit would guide me and reveal to me the truths of the Bible if I merely asked and read the Bible. So that's what I did.

Unlike PghPanther I did not trust the preacher, or their Bible Schools or seminaries. I didn't trust theologians, clergy, or apologists. I could clearly see that they were already engaged in grave disagreement among themselves. They clearly didn't know a single coherent truth with any consensus.

So the only place I could possibly find truth would be from the Bible itself as revealed to me through the Holy Spirit and the Power of Christ. So I dove right into the doctrine immediately, expecting to emerge as a confident preacher who might even be able to help all these other confused Christian clergy to understand the "Real Truth".

That's what I expected to happen. So I was a firm believer.

But that's not what happened at all. Not even close. The more I studied the Bible the more I realized that there are no good explanations in it. Peter was wrong. There are no confident answers to be given to those who ask questions. They simply don't exist. Even the apologists who offer excuse for the biblical scriptures do not offer compelling excuses. In fact, their excuses are almost always more problematic than the original scriptures which were already nonsensical.

So over the course of a very few years, from approximately the age of about 17 to about 25 I had completely a journey that convince me point blank that there are no rational answers to support this faith.

At that time I not only realized that it would be impossible to teach the Bible to anyone in any coherent or meaningful way, but there is no point in me believing it either.

At that point I didn't suddenly become an atheist. I simply realized that Christianity and none of the Abrahamic religions can possibly be true. So the Bible became nothing more than pure mythology to me at the point in time. It can't possibly have anymore merit than Greek mythology.

I still, to this very day, have never given up on the hope that something mystical and magical could be beneath our reality. After having realized that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam cannot possibly be true, I did look into other religions. Not in search of God, but simply to see if there were any other religions out there that could at least be true in terms of plausibility. To that end I have recognized that some views of Buddhism seem to be plausible, at least from the perspective that they aren't utterly self-contradictory or downright ignorant.

I don't view Buddhism as being true today. But I do view it as being potentially true.

I still have difficulty in accepting a purely secular existence. Although it doesn't scare me of that's the truth of reality. I just wish that there could be more than that. A one-shot lifetime seems like such a waste. Especially when so much of it was wasted being brought up to believe in a false religion. And living on a planet where the vast majority of people are still preaching and teaching this nonsense to their children on a daily basis.

If we were all to be honest with ourselves we would all toss religion out the window, and simply demand that if anyone ever proposes the existence of a "God" again they had better be able to produce him immediately without excuses, otherwise, they should be committed to an insane asylum,.

Seriously.

Religion ruins lives. It should be treated in the same way we treat cancer. And anyone caught spreading it should be considered a criminal.

[OnceConvinced]

I am always inspired by stories like this. And Pgh's is so very similar to my own in many ways. Seeing as you've posted it here, I figured I'd post some of the stuff I was thinking when I read it on the other thread...

I was born into a Christian family but never really followed or cared about the Christian faith. Then when I was 17 I had a born again experience at a Billy Graham rally and became passion in my walk with the lord for over 40 years after that.

Slightly different from me in that I fully believed it right from the word go as I was taught it as fact and given no other options of what to believe. I was taught that atheists were evil Christian haters and that evolution was a lie of the devil.

I was 7 when I first gave my life to Christ, but 16 when I first really took the bull by the horns... as it were. I was baptised at 16 and went into children's ministries. I felt that Jesus was very much alive in my life at that time. I was convinced I was a true Christian and in a "relationship with God".

If you go by my initial conversion at the age of 7 I was a committed Christian for 33 years. 40 years if you include the first 7, which I kind of do as I fully believed and followed Jesus. I just didn't understand about being "born again" and "repentance" until the age of 7.

During my born again experience and thereafter, I felt the sense and presence of the Holy Spirit throughout my life...

Same here. The funny thing is I still feel it when I go to church or listen to the odd piece of Christian music (which I still have in my music collection)

2) The clergy and other spiritually mature Christians I respected assured me that ample historical evidence existed both within and extra Biblical to validate this event so that I never doubted it occurring.

Yes. In fact it wasn't until the internet came along that I was suddenly faced with a fact that nobody had ever told me before... That the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John weren't actually written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but unknown authors 60-80 years later. This was a shock to me. Why was it that we were being led to believe that the gospels were eyewitness accounts when they weren't???

3) I saw many successful adults within the church I attended whom where gifted/ intelligent and all believed in the resurrection. As a result, I presumed they must have looked into this and found out what the clerical folks knew that it was true so there was never a need for me to consider doing that....

There are a lot of people like that in churches. I have since thought back and realised that of those who were highly intelligent and learned, (at least the ones who I knew the background of) ... they had all been indoctrinated from birth.

1) I was passionate about my study of science/engineering as a student. and the more I learned about earth/space sciences along with anthropology/sociobiology the more I struggled to maintain a world view based on my Biblical beliefs with the growing empirical evidence of science in direct conflict with that. However, I learned to accept science but not let it tread on my faith or that which I felt the Holy Spirit revealed to me........

It was doing my degree in 1997 that helped me a lot to learn critical thinking skills. It was shortly after that I began to question some of my beliefs as I applied critical thought to them, rather than just accepting them without question.

I was born in 1954 and all through most of my decades as a Christian my faith was never challenged, questioned or debated by others in my surroundings

Mine were never challenged either. I surrounded myself with fellow Christians who validated my beliefs. Hardcore atheists I avoided like the plague. Most people I came across were respectful of my beliefs and the worst I got was fun teasing, which I gave right back, thus enabling some good friendships with atheists.

.........but over the last decade or two with the growth of the Internet and other social media others have approached me and asked or challenged why I believe what I do

Yes, this was a huge factor for me to. I was suddenly being challenged on my beliefs and the holes were being picked apart. I was faced with things I’d never considered before and being a logical thinker, I had no choice but to face them and not just sweep them under the carpet.

My prediction is that the Internet will spell the eventual doom of religion. It might not disappear completely but be relegated to a very tiny minority of people, particularly in the western world. Education is a powerful thing.

Another factor was my relationship with the Holy Spirit............What ever truth this aspect of the triune God was suppose to reveal to me through inspiration or the words of the Bible, sometimes came up against doctrine and understanding that was in direct conflict (often with even essential salvation doctrine) with other Christians claiming their Holy Spirit revelation.........

A massively huge factor in why I had to face facts that Christianity was a fantasy. Every Christian claimed to be a true Christian, claiming they had the holy spirit guiding them and teaching them. Yet what they were taught by the HS was completely different to another Christian who claimed to have been taught by the HS. And both these Christians are accusing the other of not being a true Christian.

Christians don’t seem to get it that this is a major problem for their religion and their claims. A major reason why we can’t take them seriously when they claim they are hearing from God.

And I knew that the inner voice in my head was my own conscious and not something supernatural simply because there was no consistency among Christians of this revelation.

Exactly. And that’s all the holy spirit is. It’s your own voice and at times it can seem very profound and clear, but it’s just you. That’s why Christians come up with completely different ideas and interpretations. It really is that obvious.

Much more along these lines challenged me about what really was going on in my effort to defend my faith and it took very little time for me to discard it after 40 plus years.....

It took me 5 years of fighting against it before I could finally flag Christianity as nonsense. I spent 5 years crying out to God and begging to be able to believe again like I did. It did me no good.

The only lasting piece that I struggled to discard was my fear of hell..............which evidentially became nothing more than a myth like everything else once exposed to the reality of historical study.

That always tends to be a tough one and it was for me for a while. “What if I’m wrong??� But now I am confident that no god would be so cruel and sadistic. Hell is simply a made up place to scare people to conform to those in charge.

There is not earthshattering change to my life now as I hold the world view of a scientific rationalist which sees me defined as an atheist to most I talk to about the subject
..............just that I have a lot more time on Sunday mornings which I volunteer to do clean ups of the environment and help with abandoned pets and such. Otherwise, morally and socially I'm the same person but without the baggage of the an adult Santa Claus belief

Pretty much the same here. I have not additional urges to sin, nor am I a more sinful or immoral person. Most of my morals have remained intact, I just don’t beat myself up over my human nature anymore. I am also a more accepting person and understand the differences in people a little more and why we are the way we are.

Sorry for the digression, but I think its important to know that many atheist were once born again Holy Spirit filled committed Christians at one time as well.

Not just lukewarm or social Christians..........

And this is what makes me so angry when Christians try to flag us away as not being true Christians. They really have no clue because they didn’t live our lives. They are judgemental and arrogant to say such things. All they do is put a wall in between themselves and us ex-Christians, because we know how sincere we were. We know how dedicated we were. We know we did what we were supposed to do. It’s just that the system doesn’t work in reality. Those people who accuse us of not being true Christians just show us again and again how deluded they truly are. Just how false their beliefs are. It just adds even more assurity that we will never embrace Christianity ever again. If it ever really did come down to a Judgement Day, those arrogant Christians would have to stand before God and explain why they were so determined to demonise us people who were so genuine about our beliefs in God. They would have to justify why they deterred us further from him.

Perhaps it would be wise to NOT assume that those who left Christianity were "never converted". Several members here are Ex-Christians who spent decades of their life as very devout Christians. PghPanther says it very well. Suggesting he or they were not (or that you know better how devout they were) is extremely disrespectful as well as being wrong.

Very disrespectful indeed. Disrespectful and highly insulting. I would say more, but I don't want to be accused of personally attacking any forum members.

[Zzyzx]

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Heck, I can't contribute my de-conversion experience because there isn't one. Although raised by a devoutly religious mother, I doubted from as far back as I can remember and rejected the whole idea by eight or ten.

Bible stories were no more credible than cartoons or fantasy stories -- but were told with a straight face as though they were true. I wondered about the mentality of adults who actually claimed to believe all that stuff.

Fortunately my extended family included aunts and uncles who were not religious (among the many who were). I felt closer to, and more respectful of, those who were Non-Believers (excepting Mom of course).

By the time I went to college (after a hitch in the military) and studied sciences the conflict between religious dogma and literature vs. science and real-world knowledge / experience confirmed my earlier decisions.

In teaching university level science classes I emphasized "verify, verify, verify -- don't take my word or anyone else's -- use critical / analytical skills and multiple disconnected sources to learn what works in the real world." (I guess I do the same thing here).

[Hamsaka]

Hi everyone, long time no see been battling lions tigers and bears elsewhere and working some seriously weird hours . . .

Anyway, to me, it looks as though 'modern' atheists can be roughly divided into two groups; those who were once believers and those who've never believed at all. It makes for atheists with different approaches to the debate.

As one of the former believers, I can remember what my thought processes were like when I believed and from my present vantage of no belief in gods, I can sort of go back and forth, after a fashion, and it gives me a sympathy with current believers.

That sympathy is a double edged sword, let me tell ya, and not because it cuts me. I've believed and experienced the cessation of belief, step by step. I think it can make me extra critical, perhaps be more hard on believers in some cases during discussion or debate.

Anyway that 'sympathy' with believers, however it manifests itself, makes a rough distinction between atheists who were once believers and atheists who never were.

[Divine Insight]

Anyway that 'sympathy' with believers, however it manifests itself, makes a rough distinction between atheists who were once believers and atheists who never were.

I agree, but I'm not sure that it's always manifest as "sympathy".

I actually have very little sympathy for Christians who will defend the dogma to their death without even acknowledging that there are indeed problems with the dogma.

Back when I was a Christian I at least confessed that there were unanswered questions, and questions that even the Clergy themselves aren't in agreement on.

At that time my concern was to seek the answers to those unanswered questions BEFORE I set off trying to teach the Gospels as undeniably truth. So I have very little respect for those "evangelical types" who demand that they can defend the Gospels. To me this is nothing more than either extreme ignorance, or outright deceit to try to defend the indefensible.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are many different kinds of "believers" and I don't automatically identify with all of them.

There was never a time when I had ever claimed to "know" that Christianity is true. At best I would have confessed that I have faith that it's true. And I would have also been honest enough to confess that the faith I did have was actually faith that my parents and other elders had a CLUE what they were talking about.

I actually discovered later that this was extremely misplaced faith. Even these people would confess that they don't really know that any of this is true, when pressed to be HONEST about it.

Even Clergy will confess to merely believing on Faith alone.

So I have very little respect for "believers" who claim to "know" that the Bible is true.

I was never that kind of "believer".

Even some of the authors of the Bible suggested that we should seek TRUTH. In fact, I believe that Jesus was attributed to preaching this as well.

So proclaiming the Bible to be true when I don't yet have good reasons to do so would actually be dishonest.

This is why I ultimately rejected the whole thing. Could I honestly preach it or support it? The answer is simply, no. I cannot support the Bible whilst retaining honesty.

If I am to be TRUTHFUL and HONEST (two things that Jesus surely would have supported) then I have no choice but to report that the Bible is filled with extreme self-contradictions, immoral absurdities, and does not appear to be from any omnipotent or omniscient God.

And I honestly don't see how anyone can draw any other conclusion than this if they are to be genuinely honest and truthful about it.

So no. I don't identify with everyone one who claims to be a "believer". And I certainly don't have sympathy for everyone who claims to be a believer.

I do have sympathy for those who have paced their FAITH in their parents and elders though. They placed their faith in the people who have told them that the Bible makes sense, when in reality it does not.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

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This is the most outstanding post of its kind that I have read in a long time.

I was born into a Christian family but never really followed or cared about the Christian faith. Then when I was 17 I had a born again experience at a Billy Graham rally and became passion in my walk with the lord for over 40 years after that.

Prior to my acceptance of Christ as my personal savior, I would have considered myself a deist or perhaps agnostic but never an atheist.

During my born again experience and thereafter, I felt the sense and presence of the Holy Spirit throughout my life...

I had never questioned the historical documentation of the resurrection because

1) I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life as all the conviction that I needed to validate that Christ was real today as much as anytime in history past.

2) The clergy and other spiritually mature Christians I respected assured me that ample historical evidence existed both within and extra Biblical to validate this event so that I never doubted it occurring.

3) I saw many successful adults within the church I attended whom where gifted/ intelligent and all believed in the resurrection. As a result, I presumed they must have looked into this and found out what the clerical folks knew that it was true so there was never a need for me to consider doing that....

But over time some problems occurred.................

1) I was passionate about my study of science/engineering as a student. and the more I learned about earth/space sciences along with anthropology/sociobiology the more I struggled to maintain a world view based on my Biblical beliefs with the growing empirical evidence of science in direct conflict with that. However, I learned to accept science but not let it tread on my faith or that which I felt the Holy Spirit revealed to me........

But something else came up that began the process leading to where I am today.

I was born in 1954 and all through most of my decades as a Christian my faith was never challenged, questioned or debated by others in my surroundings.........but over the last decade or two with the growth of the Internet and other social media others have approached me and asked or challenged why I believe what I do (I was evangelical enough with what I believed that everyone knew that about me......I didn't try to beat people over the head with a Bible but I took every opportunity to witness the Gospel to others when I felt the Holy Spirit lead me to a situation like that.........

So when all these people began to approach me I remembered 1st Peter 3:15 and realized that I had to be ready to provide an answer to anyone asking about why I believe in what I do......

.....most of my questions came about the history of the manuscripts and canonization process of scripture of which I knew little about since I had relied on other Christians to tell me about this in a very general sense.

But since I had no way to answer those who asked about this, I began to study the process of Biblical history and the process of information exchange of the event claimed in the Bible not only from a Christian's prospective but also from a secular prospective as well to "get the other side" so to speak. I also, felt that my faith was strong enough and that if the resurrection was a fact that it would stand up to any kind of skeptical challenge so I looked at that side of the issue as well with the confidence in what I believed.

I presumed all along and it was implied in my church that the Gospels for instance were written by the people that had their names associated with them..........I envisioned them all sitting around a campfire with Christ at the end of everyday and taking down the notes of what happened in the days activities like a daily diary..........When I found out the truth of their writings from scholarly sources both Christian and secular......I was in shock........

Another factor was my relationship with the Holy Spirit............What ever truth this aspect of the triune God was suppose to reveal to me through inspiration or the words of the Bible, sometimes came up against doctrine and understanding that was in direct conflict (often with even essential salvation doctrine) with other Christians claiming their Holy Spirit revelation.........

I began to understand that I placed my faith in manuscripts of information processing that is no better than those oral stories related by people passionate in what they believe......... not for the purpose of documenting history. Like how UFO groups claim with the Roswell crash site for instance....

And I knew that the inner voice in my head was my own conscious and not something supernatural simply because there was no consistency among Christians of this revelation.

Much more along these lines challenged me about what really was going on in my effort to defend my faith and it took very little time for me to discard it after 40 plus years.....

The only lasting piece that I struggled to discard was my fear of hell..............which evidentially became nothing more than a myth like everything else once exposed to the reality of historical study.

There is not earthshattering change to my life now as I hold the world view of a scientific rationalist which sees me defined as an atheist to most I talk to about the subject..............just that I have a lot more time on Sunday mornings which I volunteer to do clean ups of the environment and help with abandoned pets and such. Otherwise, morally and socially I'm the same person but without the baggage of the an adult Santa Claus belief................

Sorry for the digression, but I think its important to know that many atheist were once born again Holy Spirit filled committed Christians at one time as well.

Not just lukewarm or social Christians..........

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 845#781845

This was in response to someone who said:

Atheists who call themselves former Christians were most likely never 'converted' into Christianity but instead were born into it. In other words, they followed Christianity for some time because that's what they were used to with their parents and throughout childhood but they did not get a chance to have the 'conversion experience' which is more profound and lasting.

Perhaps it would be wise to NOT assume that those who left Christianity were "never converted". Several members here are Ex-Christians who spent decades of their life as very devout Christians. PghPanther says it very well. Suggesting he or they were not (or that you know better how devout they were) is extremely disrespectful as well as being wrong.

As Lewis Black said, he would love to believe that it is all true. But he has thoughts.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I'll add that my experience is that all of the born into Christianity people I know all had conversion experiences. What was interesting in PghPanther's story was how he appears to have investigated alone. Nothing he discovered should be a shock to a Christian.