The Best Naturalistic Explanation for Christianity

[liamconnor]

I believe I posted something like this before and it got derailed; or rather, the issue was dodged.

A quick scenario: Let us suppose a man who is undecided on the issue of Jesus' resurrection (and for that matter, the existence of God). He wants to know in what direction the historical data points. If he is an honest thinker, does his homework, I believe the "best" naturalistic interpretation of the evidence he will find will include the following:

1) Jesus was crucified and buried in a tomb
2) The body of Jesus was stolen by a non-disciple sometime between Friday evening and Sunday morning; that is, during the Sabbath.
3) Sunday morn the tomb was discovered vacant by women disciples
4) Several days later, a large number of his disciples, individually and collectively suffered hallucinations which were consistent with each other: a) they were bodily and involved the delusion of "touch" b) they left the impression of a commission to preach a specific message which was consistent among them all
5) These disciples believed and preached that their master was raised by God, and that this event was the culmination of God's acts in history.
6) Paul persecuted the Jesus movement. He too suffered from an hallucination from which he believed he had encountered Jesus and received from him a similar vocation.

Are there better naturalistic explanations which have responsibly dealt with the data?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 59 by Bust Nak]

We are talking about the N.T.--documents which are no later than 100 Ad.

Constantine comes much later.

Please stick to OPs (or brush up on your history) if you wish to be taken seriously.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 70 by Tired of the Nonsense]

You are claiming that a corpse came back to life and then subsequently flew away. Are you REALLY in the best position to be making judgments concerning what is silly, and what is not?

I want you to repeat back to me the topic of OP.

Then I want you to tell me what is wrong with the above statement of yours.

Then I want you to explain to me why my frustration with debating you is legit.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 70 by Tired of the Nonsense]

You are claiming that a corpse came back to life and then subsequently flew away. Are you REALLY in the best position to be making judgments concerning what is silly, and what is not?

I want you to repeat back to me the topic of OP.

Then I want you to tell me what is wrong with the above statement of yours.

Then I want you to explain to me why my frustration with debating you is legit.

The best way for you to undercut the argument against the truth of the flying reanimated corpse of Jesus is to openly and clearly deny that you personally believe it yourself. Will you do that?

And now that I have deflected your attempt at side-stepping my previous post, please respond to it.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 70 by Tired of the Nonsense]

The question here is, is it considered undignified under Jewish custom to transport a body for burial? And the answer is, NO, NOT AT ALL.

Would it have been more honorable to bury a body in Galilee (now you have to know something about Galilee, and especially Nazareth) or in the Holy City?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 73 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Dude, what is your deal.

This topic is about Natural Explanations. I have given what I think is the best one. It does not involve corpses rising or flying away. It involves pathology. If you think there are better natural explanations, then state them.

If you don't like that OP, then get off it and start your own; but hijacking an OP is immature.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 56 by Kapyong]

thank you for your thoughts.

I think the same about Julius Caesar (who was also deemed a god).

Now, show me your evidence, and I'll show you mine.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 73 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Dude, what is your deal.

This topic is about Natural Explanations. I have given what I think is the best one. It does not involve corpses rising or flying away. It involves pathology. If you think there are better natural explanations, then state them.

If you don't like that OP, then get off it and start your own; but hijacking an OP is immature.

I have stated it quite clearly repeatedly. Joseph's tomb proved to be empty on Sunday morning because the followers of Jesus, WHO WERE ALREADY IN LEGAL POSSESSION OF THE BODY, chose to relocate the body to another location for burial. That may not be the explanation that you prefer, but that IS the obvious explanation. If you have a more realistic explanation please provide it.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 27 by liamconnor]

The Corinthians themselves knew Peter (read the letter!) personally as well as Apollo. You have this strange idea that people back then just sat in their homes isolated: how did trade occur? how did news travel?

I have never said or implied that people stayed in their homes, isolated. What I think is that this new group, which called itself Christians, was so small at first, that no-one cared to investigate them, to try and prove them wrong. Yes, journeys could be taken, but what would be the point of someone travelling close to a thousand miles to investigate a new religion that has barely a few hundred followers? Especially in an age when religions and cults were all over the place?

The list was given once?

Re-read the passage again yourself. I said that Paul mentions this 500 number ONCE and only ONCE. In 1 Cor 15, he mentions a few names (Cephas, James, himself, the apostles) and most importantly, this 500 number (and of that crowd of 500, who are mentioned apart from the apostles, no names or locations are given). He may claim to have written/spoken about this before, but we don't have said documents, do we?

False. There have been no cases of collective hallucinations: two people hallucinating exactly the same thing, to the most minute detail.

How do you know this is a case of collective hallucination, correct down to the most minute detail? The Gospels were written decades after the fact.

Your argument (if I understand it) is that the Corinthian community was such, that they were willing to drop their Roman culture because some guys named Peter, Apollos and Paul said, "I think a guy rose from the dead, follow him." And no one, not a single Corinthian said, "Umm...can I have some proof of this?"

If so, You simply don't understand Graeco/Roman religion or Jewish/Christian. People did not "drop a religion" all the time. They borrowed, they adapted, they included. They did not DENY. And DENIAL was center to Judaism as well as Christianity. Jews were given some leeway due to pedigree (it was an old teaching). Christians were scorned in the eyes of Greeks because it was a novelty (hence it was the Christians that Nero pinned the Roman fire on, hoping no one would really care).


In 1 Cor. 15 Paul says, "what I delivered to you...what I received...". Past tense. Already happened. Not "Now I am delivering to you for the first time; which I just now received."

[liamconnor]

.
What is the best naturalistic explanation for Paul Bunyan cutting so many trees?

1. He always ate a big breakfast
2. His ax was extra sharp
3. Logging regulations were lax back then
4. The trees he cut were small

Take your choice trying to show that he was not supernatural. In other words, I'll tell a story and you try to explain how it could happen naturally.



Or, might the best "naturalistic" explanation for tales of Paul Bunyan and of Jesus be that the stories are myth, legend, folklore -- perhaps with a kernel of truth somewhere but vastly exaggerated?

What is the evidence that Paul Bunyan and the early Christian movement are good parallels, other than you don't believe either?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 70 by Tired of the Nonsense]

The question here is, is it considered undignified under Jewish custom to transport a body for burial? And the answer is, NO, NOT AT ALL.

Would it have been more honorable to bury a body in Galilee (now you have to know something about Galilee, and especially Nazareth) or in the Holy City?

Jewish Cemetery
Burial rights in a Jewish cemetery
Family plots. It is an ancient Jewish tradition to purchase a cemetery plot during one's lifetime. The graves in most cemeteries are arranged according to families. Some cemeteries, however, have separate sections for men and women. In many cemeteries it is customary not to bury a woman next to any man other than her husband. Therefore, the graves alternate: husband, wife, wife, husband, husband, wife, etc. The unmarried are usually buried alongside their parents. Some cemeteries allocate separate sections to different Jewish communities.
http://www.jewish-funeral-guide.com/tra ... rights.htm