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If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been WHY didn't he say or do anything new or useful?
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/04/ch ... -question/
If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .
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If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .
Post #1.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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- rikuoamero
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .
Post #81[Replying to post 80 by liamconnor]
I am not aware of any such books.
Done. Show me a secular history book that teaches that the events spoken of in the New Testament really did happen - resurrection and all.study how history is done in general; then apply the same methods to the N.T.
I am not aware of any such books.
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .
Post #82[Replying to post 81 by rikuoamero]
That is not proper history.
It is YOU who are making a dichotomy between secular and religious. I follow real history by treating them as documents. The letter written to a Corinth church is a document; a Graeco/Roman bio which we call Mark is another. So is a two volume work with we call Luke/Acts. Plutarch's writings are documents. They are all documents. From them we establish history. The fact that those pertaining to Jesus are all bound within a single binding and regarded as sacred is irrelevant to the historian of the period.
You also seem to be very confused with your terminology. By "secular" I suppose you mean "having no religious significance" (and, good luck finding that in the ancient world) and void of the miraculous. So, are you asking me to show you a document void both of religion and miracles which corroborates the miraculous? Contradiction.
So then, if you want to act like an historian, start thinking of documents, not "sacred books". and start analyzing your own criteria.
That is not proper history.
It is YOU who are making a dichotomy between secular and religious. I follow real history by treating them as documents. The letter written to a Corinth church is a document; a Graeco/Roman bio which we call Mark is another. So is a two volume work with we call Luke/Acts. Plutarch's writings are documents. They are all documents. From them we establish history. The fact that those pertaining to Jesus are all bound within a single binding and regarded as sacred is irrelevant to the historian of the period.
You also seem to be very confused with your terminology. By "secular" I suppose you mean "having no religious significance" (and, good luck finding that in the ancient world) and void of the miraculous. So, are you asking me to show you a document void both of religion and miracles which corroborates the miraculous? Contradiction.
So then, if you want to act like an historian, start thinking of documents, not "sacred books". and start analyzing your own criteria.
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .
Post #83.
IS there a difference (or dichotomy) between secular and religious? Or is that something that Rikuo made up?
1) It should not be surprising that some religious literature supports the “resurrection� and other supernatural tales.
2) It WOULD be surprising if non-religious literature supported such things. Are there any examples?
I trust that readers understand that the “resurrection� story appears ONLY in religion-promotional literature – and is not set forth as literal truth by historians (outside of religious literature).
Do you claim professional / academic / scholarly expertise in history? If not, you are speaking as a layman with an opinion.rikuoamero wrote:That is not proper history.liamconnor wrote:Done. Show me a secular history book that teaches that the events spoken of in the New Testament really did happen - resurrection and all.liamconnor wrote: study how history is done in general; then apply the same methods to the N.T.
I am not aware of any such books.
Outstanding dodge.rikuoamero wrote: It is YOU who are making a dichotomy between secular and religious. I follow real history by treating them as documents.
IS there a difference (or dichotomy) between secular and religious? Or is that something that Rikuo made up?
1) It should not be surprising that some religious literature supports the “resurrection� and other supernatural tales.
2) It WOULD be surprising if non-religious literature supported such things. Are there any examples?
I trust that readers understand that the “resurrection� story appears ONLY in religion-promotional literature – and is not set forth as literal truth by historians (outside of religious literature).
.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .
Post #84[Replying to post 83 by Zzyzx]
I claim the place of a very, very, educated man in this particular historical study. I claim to have formal degrees. These degrees have equipped me to continue my studies on my own.
I suspect you have nothing of the above based on your responses.
I suspect you have no ability to engage a real historical debate.
I am willing to be proved wrong, obviously.
But really, are you so illogical as to post this
Are you really asking for an ancient historian to assent to the resurrection but not really care about it? To say "yep, that happened, but it makes no difference to my life....now, hmmm....what is the next thing I will investigate...ah yes, the wars in Germania"?
I already anticipated this.
You obviously did not read it or did not understand it.
Do you claim professional / academic / scholarly expertise in history? If not, you are speaking as a layman with an opinion.
I claim the place of a very, very, educated man in this particular historical study. I claim to have formal degrees. These degrees have equipped me to continue my studies on my own.
I suspect you have nothing of the above based on your responses.
I suspect you have no ability to engage a real historical debate.
I am willing to be proved wrong, obviously.
But really, are you so illogical as to post this
2) It WOULD be surprising if non-religious literature supported such things. Are there any examples?
Are you really asking for an ancient historian to assent to the resurrection but not really care about it? To say "yep, that happened, but it makes no difference to my life....now, hmmm....what is the next thing I will investigate...ah yes, the wars in Germania"?
I already anticipated this.
You obviously did not read it or did not understand it.
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .
Post #85[Replying to post 82 by liamconnor]
So when you constantly try to tell us here how to do and approach history, you're literally going against what I've seen EVERY OTHER actual historian do.
And the writings in the Quran and Hadith are documents, and yet, NOT ONCE, have you ever been seen on this site saying that yes Muhammed DID talk to angels, yes Muhammed DID declare Jesus to be just a prophet, and that yes, Muhammed heard from God himself that the resurrection of Jesus was a lie.So is a two volume work with we call Luke/Acts. Plutarch's writings are documents.
I meant a modern history book, written today, with no bias towards any religion. I devoured history books when I was younger. The most they would say about this or that religion was "The people of the time believed X did Y, or that their god(s) did X or Y". They never NOT ONCE said anything like "Magical Person X DID do Y" or "God Z DID do A".By "secular" I suppose you mean "having no religious significance" (and, good luck finding that in the ancient world)
So when you constantly try to tell us here how to do and approach history, you're literally going against what I've seen EVERY OTHER actual historian do.
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .
Post #86Seems to me if Jesus taught about invisible 'bugs' making people sick so wash your food and hands, the general mindset at the time would have helplessly turned it into something superstitious and terrifying. I don't believe Jesus knew about these things himself, so it surprises me not that he didn't attempt to make inroads like Llewellen and Pasteur and all their forbears.Zzyzx wrote: .
If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been WHY didn't he say or do anything new or useful?
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/04/ch ... -question/
What Jesus DID say that WAS new and 'useful' was along the lines of a surefire way to avoid God's eternal punishment for unbelievers (in him). The whole Heaven-Hell concept came from Jesus, didn't it? Paul provided the blood atonement and embellished/enriched the idea, but before Jesus, there was no 'promise' of eternal glory one could obtain for one's self simply through himself (believing in him).
This ^^^ is the crux of the Christian faith I see throughout the fundamentalists and evangelicals, to the exclusion of brotherly love (except for other born again or saved people) and loving your enemies by harshly reminding them of the place in Hell their lack of belief will earn them.
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Re: If Jesus was who he is claimed to have been . . .
Post #87.
In this Forum we debate religion. Those who desire historical debates might be well advised to find a history buff forum where their expertise will be revered.
Gospels tell MANY “back from the dead� incidents. It would seem reasonable that SOME source outside the tales told by gospel writers would have noticed and recorded THIRTY or more formerly dead people walking around.
However, there are no records of any chronicler of the era mentioning such an astonishing event. It is not until decades or generations later that stories are written claiming that those things happened.
Those who eventually told the tale are all promoters of the emerging religion. However, the writers cannot be identified with certainty (famous names were assigned later) and none can be shown to have witnessed the events they describe (as though they had personal knowledge). What were their sources of information – folklore, oral tradition, rumors, myths?
Even at that, no one is said to have witnessed a long-dead body coming back to life. It is assumed to have happened based upon unverified tales about a tomb being found empty and unverified tales that the deceased visited supporters.
Many tombs are found empty without leading to the conclusion that the deceased came back to life. Many supposedly (or really) dead people are reportedly “seen� postmortem. Are those accounts taken seriously?
If similar tales were told about other proposed supernatural characters would the evidence be sufficient to convince historians that the deceased did, actually, come back to life? Is that what people learn when they study history in school?
Impressive claim. Perhaps those sterling credentials will be reflected in posts.liamconnor wrote:I claim the place of a very, very, educated man in this particular historical study. I claim to have formal degrees. These degrees have equipped me to continue my studies on my own.Zzyzx wrote: Do you claim professional / academic / scholarly expertise in history? If not, you are speaking as a layman with an opinion.
Heck no. I just jumped off the turnip truck so I'm really impressed by and in awe of anyone who went to high school.liamconnor wrote: I suspect you have nothing of the above based on your responses.
Opinion noted. Condescending attitude noted.liamconnor wrote: I suspect you have no ability to engage a real historical debate.
In this Forum we debate religion. Those who desire historical debates might be well advised to find a history buff forum where their expertise will be revered.
Wrong? That must approach inconceivable.liamconnor wrote: I am willing to be proved wrong, obviously.
Readers will decide for themselves whether my points are illogical – 1600 views of this thread so far.liamconnor wrote: But really, are you so illogical as to post this
Nope. I ask for ANY contemporary or near-contemporary accounts of the “resurrection� by people outside the Jesus Movement. Salesmen for the company are not depended upon for an impartial account of the titular head of the company.liamconnor wrote:Are you really asking for an ancient historian to assent to the resurrection but not really care about it?Zzyzx wrote: It WOULD be surprising if non-religious literature supported such things. Are there any examples?
Gospels tell MANY “back from the dead� incidents. It would seem reasonable that SOME source outside the tales told by gospel writers would have noticed and recorded THIRTY or more formerly dead people walking around.
However, there are no records of any chronicler of the era mentioning such an astonishing event. It is not until decades or generations later that stories are written claiming that those things happened.
Those who eventually told the tale are all promoters of the emerging religion. However, the writers cannot be identified with certainty (famous names were assigned later) and none can be shown to have witnessed the events they describe (as though they had personal knowledge). What were their sources of information – folklore, oral tradition, rumors, myths?
Even at that, no one is said to have witnessed a long-dead body coming back to life. It is assumed to have happened based upon unverified tales about a tomb being found empty and unverified tales that the deceased visited supporters.
Many tombs are found empty without leading to the conclusion that the deceased came back to life. Many supposedly (or really) dead people are reportedly “seen� postmortem. Are those accounts taken seriously?
If similar tales were told about other proposed supernatural characters would the evidence be sufficient to convince historians that the deceased did, actually, come back to life? Is that what people learn when they study history in school?
Is this the response of a “very, very educated man�?liamconnor wrote: To say "yep, that happened, but it makes no difference to my life....now, hmmm....what is the next thing I will investigate...ah yes, the wars in Germania"?
Maybe someday I can learn enough from very, very educated people to become a credible debater.liamconnor wrote: You obviously did not read it or did not understand it.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Post #88
Moderator Warningliamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 83 by Zzyzx]Do you claim professional / academic / scholarly expertise in history? If not, you are speaking as a layman with an opinion.
I claim the place of a very, very, educated man in this particular historical study. I claim to have formal degrees. These degrees have equipped me to continue my studies on my own.
I suspect you have nothing of the above based on your responses.
I suspect you have no ability to engage a real historical debate.........
You obviously did not read it or did not understand it.
It is well and good to assert your credentials, especially in light of the fact that you were challenged on them.
But stating negative assumptions about the qualifications of another crosses the line into condescension and personal attack.
Please review our Rules.
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Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.