Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

[Zzyzx]

.
Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 112 by catnip]

There might be other texts with the same character in it.. but we are talking about the Bible Satan. Maybe the Bible talks bad about Satan because it was a competing god. And you know... the authors didn't quite LIKE the competing god for some reason, so called it.."evil". And you know, I made all of that up IN MY MIND... It's called "speculation".

Christians might speculate that ALL THE STORIES ARE TRUE.. just the way the Bible says they are.... or portrays them as being.. but that's PURE SPECULATION, too. Christians dont KNOW that the stories about Satan are true.. they just SPECULATE that the stories are true... but that doesn't mean others can't speculate DIFFERENTLY.

1) Again, I have not found a model for Satan outside of the Bible.
2) Even if we speculate about Satan being a competing god, if we are going to find him then we have to rely on scripture: when he was mentioned, his characteristics, what he does. Then we can look for him even if he had a name unrelated to the name "Satan".
3) Christians believe all sorts of things about Satan that are not written in the Bible because his image has been enhanced through the ages in the church, in literature and in popular culture. For example that he has cloven hooves and horns, assuming some of the characteristics of the god Pan.

1. If we are speculating, we don't have to look further than our imagination.
2. We rely on scripture as the source for our speculation. The speculation happens in our heads.
3. Right. And Christians believe all sorts of things about "God" that are not written in the Bible because his image has been enhanced through the ages in the church, in literature and in popular culture. In my opinion, that's one of the points of the debate.

Christians merely SPECULATE about the nature of God and Satan and Christ and so on. That's why there are so many denominations of Christianity.

Christians make a lot of truth claims, but they turn out to be merely speculations.

[JLB32168]

Christians make a lot of truth claims, but they turn out to be merely speculations.[/b]

So the purpose of this thread is to state that Christian speculations might just be that – speculations and nothing more (since Christians don’t know this already.)

Did you know that water is generally wet at seventy degrees Fahrenheit on Earth? I was shocked when I learned it.

[catnip]

[Replying to post 112 by catnip]

While I don’t agree with your conclusions about the reality of Satan, CN, I can appreciate your frustration at having salient points ignored and/or having your responses chopped up so that non-arguments are addressed.

Thank you. It is frustrating and yet the idea is so simple.

I have already explained on this thread that one doesn’t have to accept that Satan is real to debate whether or not he is a God. I gave the example of a debate on the Valkyries. Two people could debate whether or not the Valkyries were arbitrary and capricious or justified in their choices of who would live or die on the battlefield and one didn’t have to be an adherent to Norse Asatru.

Not at all! Mythologies are a fascinating study and many have devoted their lives to the study of them. Knowledge of them is required in a classical education.

Of course, the supposed idiocy of belief in deities was all that any skeptic had of interest and my response was, “Then why did you ask the question? Do you think that the best way to say, ‘belief in gods is stupid’ is to ask a question on whether or not Satan is a god on equal footing with the Hebrew deity? I don’t see the effectiveness of that but more power to ya’.�

I agree. The Original Question is not a good approach to debating against a person's religious beliefs. The concept of Satan is strong in our culture even among those who aren't Christian due to our Judeo-Christian heritage. Thus the rise of Satanism and the concept of evil in popular culture.

I have already explained that there is no other mention of Satan outside of the Judeo-Christian scriptures so to simply say, “The Bible is not considered an authority� – as if nothing useful can be gleaned from it w/regards to Satan means a pointless discussion will take place.

Exactly. I was thinking last night of Bart Ehrman, a now atheist, ex-Evangelical biblical scholar. If he were to discuss Satan, he would not hesitate to refer to the biblical account of Satan because that is the only known original source for anything that can be known about Satan, whether considered fictitious or real. He would do this without prejudice as a scholar.

As I think you’ve suggested, if Satan is another god being maligned by the Hebrew conquerors of Canaan for the sake up boosting up their deity, then conceivably some mention of him should be found in other Bronze Age literature by another society. It’s highly unlikely that the Hebrews obliterated all evidence of a previous society – especially since their own book says that they didn’t do what they were supposed to do – wipe everyone out.

Exactly. We would find depictions of their god(s) carved on stone or made of clay or scratched onto clay tablets even if the Hebrews or someone else had destroyed them and their culture. I think we have a very good idea of the various cultures of the region at the time and their religions.

Anyway, as I’m sure you noticed, the discussion quickly goes to “You’ve no conclusive evidence that you’re deity exists,� without addressing the question - if it's ever addressed at all. My response has typically been, “Duh – really? You mean we didn't prove God exists?�

Absolutely. It is made quite obvious considering that I don't believe in a "real" Satan to begin with.

Bravo on your composure.

I didn't feel composed! Thank you very much for your camaraderie!

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 112 by catnip]

And it fails as an attack on those who believe in God and Satan as an argument.

The OP is meant as a question, not an attack.

I see most questions such as this as a form of attack,

Attack?
Attacking WHAT?
Attacking WHOM?

I suppose there are Christians who just can't tolerate that people ask them questions.
Must be harsh. Debate must be really tough.

I explained it very gently.

I would prefer a bit of roughness instead of confusion, frankly.

And no, I have no intolerance as far as the subject of this thread goes.

Then I don't understand the above statement "I see most questions such as this as a form of attack" ( bold my own - BC )

It's hard to understand someone who says one thing and then right after, the exact opposite.

I am intolerant of the dismissal of any information that is found in the Bible as a means of discussing possibilities that Satan was really a god in a competing religion.

And yet, that's not what's happening here. Nobody is trying to stop anyone from citing the Bible. That's allowed in the rules.

I am a liberal Christian and, to the best of my knowledge, none of us believes that Satan is a real character. The Book of Job is a great literary work, but obviously it is fiction--we humans could not have first hand knowledge of what God said to Satan.

I'm not sure what you mean by "liberal Christian"... maybe it means that you cherry pick a lot .... believe some parts and not other parts of the Bible.. and the rest of us have to guess at what you DO believe or don't.

I have to remind you that you STILL have not told us why you believe in God ( if you do.... ) and NOT in Satan.

Perhaps you believe that every supernatural being in the Bible is a metaphor... and not real at all.. who knows?

I sure don't.
You're not exactly being very clear.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 123 by catnip]

Christians make a lot of truth claims, but they turn out to be merely speculations.[/b]

So the purpose of this thread is to state that Christian speculations might just be that – speculations and nothing more (since Christians don’t know this already.)

I didn't say that THE purpose of he thread is to demonstrate that... I said that I could see it that way. I didn't make a TRUTH CLAIM. And, unfortunately, one of the reasons that I have to debate Christians is that all too many DO mistake their speculations for the truth. I have to deal with that kind of thinking ALL THE TIME.

Maybe you don't think that way.. but I really can't tell. You don't seem to want to clarify just what it IS you believe in, in spite of my REPETITIOUS questions, such as :

1. What do you mean by "Liberal Christian"?
2. Do you believe in a LITERAL "God"?
3. What IS the nature of this god?

And so on... You're using these terms, and I really don't know what you mean by them. I don't even really know what you mean by "Satan", frankly. I have to GUESS that you mean it's ONLY A METAPHOR.

Why do you leave it up to us to GUESS your beliefs?
I don't see the point, frankly.

It doesn't help your intelligibility.

Did you know that water is generally wet at seventy degrees Fahrenheit on Earth? I was shocked when I learned it.

This rhetorical question adds NOTHING to the discussion.

[Zzyzx]

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Christians make a lot of truth claims, but they turn out to be merely speculations]

So the purpose of this thread is to state that Christian speculations might just be that – speculations and nothing more (since Christians don’t know this already.)

As the originator of this thread I state that its purpose is ASK Christians and Non-Christians if the character known as "Satan" is assuredly NOT one of the competing "gods". Care to address that issue?

Many Christians seem convinced that their favorite characters, claims and stories are TRUTH (not speculation or imagination). Perhaps over time some learn that none of the key claims of Christianity can be shown to be truthful and accurate (anything more than imagination or speculation).

Of course, if the characters "Satan" and "Gods" are imaginary they can morph into each other (or be precluded from doing so) with a little mental gymnastics. Debate offers an opportunity for exercise of mental gymnastics for those so inclined.

Did you know that water is generally wet at seventy degrees Fahrenheit on Earth? I was shocked when I learned it.

I am not surprised by that revelation. Many other shocking learning experiences await . . .

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 112 by catnip]

ATTACK OF THE CRAZED ATHEISTS !!!!!

but that goes back to my beliefs about our natures and our view of what we need to do.

Are you telling us that the nature of Christians is that they consider questions as attacks?

No. You are reading into it things that are not there. The point of these discussions IS to present arguments and counter arguments.

I am not reading into ANYTHING.

I am asking you a question because I have trouble understanding your actual position. You stated quite clearly that you thought these kinds of threads were ATTACKS.

I'd like to know why.
If you have changed your mind, could you tell us?

Do you STILL feel attacked by these questions ? ( by THAT one ?)

YES?NO?

One of these days, I promise to write an OP about that, but in the meantime, I will accept your suggestion that is merely a question.

Here is a hint: If it has a question mark at the end... it's most likely a question.

Yes, topics are presented here as questions.

And HOW are questions "ATTACKS"?
You didn't say.

[JLB32168]

I didn't say that THE purpose of he thread is to demonstrate that... I said that I could see it that way.

That you can see it that way is good enough for me because I can’t see any other purpose of this thread other than to say to state that Christian speculations might just be speculations and nothing more. There was some song and dance about how Christians couldn’t prove that Satan wasn’t just another deity because the Hebrews might just be badmouthing one of the Canaanite deities belonging to the people they conquered. I said it might be possible but asked what evidence was there that this was the case. The response to that was something akin to “You prove that you deity or Satan or any deity exists outside your own mind and the minds of believers� and I just sort of scratched my head at the silliness of asking the initial question in the first place. Of course, there’s only so many ways to ask “What conclusive evidence is there that gods exist� so perhaps that’s why they asked it the way they did.

You're using these terms, and I really don't know what you mean by them.

I don’t see how I can explain them any clearer so perhaps we should simply move on to bigger and better things.

This rhetorical question adds NOTHING to the discussion.

I disagree. I think it demonstrates that we’re just speculating for the sake of speculating and that’s little more than what a forensics professor would call it masterdebating. I don’t like to do it because it makes you go blind.

As the originator of this thread I state that its purpose is ASK Christians and Non-Christians if the character known as "Satan" is assuredly NOT one of the competing "gods". Care to address that issue?

I did. I asked what evidence from the historical record might suggest that Satan was regarded as a deity by the conquered peoples of Canaan – one that had to be suppressed by the conquering heroes who then cast him as an inferior creature contrasted against their own deity. That evidence wasn’t forthcoming so I’ve assumed we’re just speculating to hear ourselves talk. I love the sound of my own voice and that’s why I’m continuing discussing the topic – occasionally.

Many Christians seem convinced that their favorite characters, claims and stories are TRUTH (not speculation or imagination).

Yes, but those many Christians don’t seem to be here so it seems we’re just preaching to the choir. I know my faith is just that – a faith. It might be fact but until that’s established it’s still just “faith.�

Of course, if the characters "Satan" and "Gods" are imaginary they can morph into each other (or be precluded from doing so) with a little mental gymnastics.

[raising his hand from his desk in the back of the classroom] Is this more speculation?

I am not surprised by that [water is generally wet at seventy degrees Fahrenheit on Earth]. Many other shocking learning experiences await . . .

Indeed!

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 112 by catnip]

The overblown image of Satan and Satan's power is contrary to faith in God.

Ok.. that statement.

I have two objections that come to mind right off the bat:

1. It's presented AS IF it were a fact. But it's not at all a fact. It's your opinion. So, right off the bat, I have to say "Stop right there. If you say that statement is TRUE, you better be prepared to PROVE it true or forget it. "
2. The statement expresses your personal INTERPRETATION of what constitutes "faith in God". We know that there are just about as many possible interpretations about what the Bible says as there are believers ( and non-believers who form opinions about the Bible, like me ) . You haven't even TRIED to explain why your interpretation is more accurate than any other.

If you think about it, we Christians are to believe in God and Jesus Christ--but we are not required to believe in Satan and evil.

Yeah, that's a hard one to get my head around. If you don't believe in EVIL.... what's all the fuss about SALVATION.... salvation from WHAT exactly?...... fun and games?

It is not necessary to faith in God. It is a means of creating fear in order to convert people to Christianity for the wrong reasons, for threats of hell and damnation.

I can't agree.

If there is no evil then SALVATION doesn't make any sense. I think Christianity really needs a bad guy or a bad thing or a bad place to threaten people with.

What's that prayer.... Deliver us from evil... Right?

[catnip]

[Replying to post 112 by catnip]

There might be other texts with the same character in it.. but we are talking about the Bible Satan.

Only the Book of Enoch--also very Jewish. And it is more insistent that the satans (yes, plural) play a role that is subservient to God. Because of the nature of Satan as well as other biblical characters, there is no chance any information about them would be available apart from the Bible.

Maybe the Bible talks bad about Satan because it was a competing god. And you know... the authors didn't quite LIKE the competing god for some reason, so called it.."evil". And you know, I made all of that up IN MY MIND... It's called "speculation".

There is no use in discussing it if we remain within the confines of our imaginations. There needs to be purpose in the proposition that Satan could have been a god in another culture.

Christians might speculate that ALL THE STORIES ARE TRUE..

This is important: A person need not believe that the stories, myths, are true to consider them, discuss them. Many of us read and study the myths from other cultures, too. In Greek mythology there is a great deal of wisdom, actually, and it knowledge required in a classical education. If we see this in Greek mythology, we should be able to see it in Jewish mythology without any need to believe the stories at a literal level. And mythologies give us insight into the cultures from which they come.

just the way the Bible says they are.... or portrays them as being.. but that's PURE SPECULATION, too. Christians dont KNOW that the stories about Satan are true.. they just SPECULATE that the stories are true... but that doesn't mean others can't speculate DIFFERENTLY.

The point I made about the OP was that it is not an "us against them" sort of question. The response does not need to be Christian vs atheist, believer against unbeliever. There is a possibility that Satan could have a prototype in another culture. Many gods are that way: the Norse Loki compares nicely to the Native American Coyote. Campbell, who wrote the Hero With a Thousand Faces and The Power of Myth, pinpointed this role in myth as "the Trickster".

1. If we are speculating, we don't have to look further than our imagination.

I know that you like the scientific method. That is how all means of finding answers begin and those are usually sourced in our own informed imaginings. But there is no use in one suggesting such a speculation other than to discuss it. That necessarily means going beyond imagination and seeking out the solution.

2. We rely on scripture as the source for our speculation. The speculation happens in our heads.
3. Right. And Christians believe all sorts of things about "God" that are not written in the Bible because his image has been enhanced through the ages in the church, in literature and in popular culture. In my opinion, that's one of the points of the debate.

Yes, I did see that. Perhaps it is a wrong assumption. If the subject is Satan having had a source apart from the Hebrew culture as a god, then it necessitates looking for a similar character. It is not impossible that this could have been the case although for the most part the Jews classified all gods from other cultures as demons.

Christians merely SPECULATE about the nature of God and Satan and Christ and so on. That's why there are so many denominations of Christianity.

That may be the way you see it, however religions were not created that way and Judaism and Christianity were not created that way, either. Basically, all religions were shamanic, mystical--and the priest was a healer who put himself into a trance to find the cure or solution, to fight the demons, to guide the people. What Jesus was teaching was that it is not just for priests, but for everyone. Once Christianity was denuded of this purpose, especially following the Reformation, it became about theology, about God and about parsing the scriptures. But it is just as real as it ever was for the person who seeks God and it is not about God for them, but about the ascent to Heaven.

Christians make a lot of truth claims, but they turn out to be merely speculations.

I don't disagree with you. They rest their case on the written scriptures and know no more about it. They insist we must believe in the scriptures, but the scriptures themselves never make that pronouncement. The scriptures tell us about faith, but that still requires practice, very ancient forms of practice that are utilized the world over in many religions. Prayer (meditation), Psalms (song), even dance, dress, symbolism, fasting and pilgrimages--these are the tools of religions.

Note: I have not made one "Truth" claim in all this discussion. I have no reason to.