Evangelicals vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

[Elijah John]

Evangelicals often call Jehovah's Witnesses, a "cult" and not Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses, seem to consider Roman Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox etc, "not-Christian" (JWs please correct me if I'm wrong on this)

Question for debate, why can't all of these groups rightly be considered "Christian"?

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

We do consider all those groups "Christians" in the sense they claim to follow christ. For Jehovah's Witnesses the name has been applied to any that claim to follow christ, Catholics and Protestants (even Mormons) come under that umbrella term, sometimes refered to as "Christendom".

Many consider members of Christendom as "mainstream" christians and Jehovah's Witnesses non-mainstream, I think that there is merit in this distinction.

JW

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

We do consider all those groups "Christians" in the sense they claime to follow christ.
Jehovah's Witnesses the name has been applied to any that claim to follow christ, Catholics and Protestants (even Mormons) come under that umbrella term, sometimes refered to as "Christendom".

Many consider members of Christendom as "mainstream" christians and Jehovah's Witnesses non-mainstream, I think that there is merit in this distinction.

JW

Thanks for the clarification, I agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians...so let me redirect the OP now primarily to Evangelicals. (all are welcome to opine as well)

How can you say that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians? What, in your minds, defines a "Christian"?

[ttruscott]

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

Any answer to this question will express a fondness for some interpretations of scripture over others. While both sides do in fact have their spokespersons who claim to never interpret anything but they just point out what is written, this stance is disingenuous at best and downright serpentine at worst.

Therefore the famous call to is meaningless because without the leading of the Holy Spirit, you are depending upon your own understanding against HIS advice. It is my firm belief that those who demand more study are those who do not know the leading of the Spirit. Seek HIM first, then follow His lead which may be more study.

I have changed my opinion about what I believed to be true many things. I vacillated for years between an Arminian pov against the Calvinist until I made up my mind I was being led to accept that they were both wrong. That does not mean that I think everyone in these congregations are Satanic or non-Christians because I know that I myself used to be there and if I can be led out, anyone can be.

Nor do I believe that every sinful elect must understand the fullness of a correct theology to be saved. Faith in Christ is all that is needed for salvation whether you are too emotionally or mentally incapacitated to learn theology or not. This is to say that though I believe that most Congregations are living in error and are often led by false spirits, I do not necessarily accept all members of any congregation as a Cain, a reprobate worshipping in the Church. I also think it is possible for a Congregation to be more given to the lying spirit than others, even if none is perfect. Thus I can say that I may think a Congregation is not Christian without meaning to say that every person in the Church is Satanic any more than I believe every non-believer is Satanic.

Any error is just as evil as any other error. No one is without theological error because we don't know the full truth yet, yet we have no holes in our theologies....therefore our patch jobs look like the gospel truth and we can't tell the difference.

So, back to the topic, I think that the foundation of the WTS is sand going back to the 1800's and the whitewash of their errors and changes to cover errors are suspect. And no, I will not contend against any Witnesses, Mormons, Arminians, Calvinists or Catholics who want to engage me with their pov. It is not my calling and I know better than to try to do GOD's job for HIM.

[E.G]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Why Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) teaching and practices are not Christian?

First, let us answer the question, who is considered Christian?

In 1John 4:2 we have been told, “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God�, And in 1Timothy 3:16, we read, “great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,…� Here you can see a simple explanation: God who is capable of doing anything, decided at one point in time to appear in a form of a man to fulfill a great purpose.

If Jehovahs’ Witness teaching is in line with the Bible, how come they do not believe that Christ is God appearing in a form of a man and, simply, if you will, equal to God?
Jehovahs’ Witness believes that Lord Christ is just one of his creations and is inferior to God.

This is a belief that is in a stark contrast to the overwhelming Biblical teaching declaring the fact that Lord Christ is one with God and is God.
I would like to provide here few, yet, very clear and powerful Biblical verses attested to the fact that Lord Crist is indeed God manifested himself in a form of a man.

Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? Philippians 3:20-21

Who is omniscient (all knowing)? Colossians 2:2-3

Who is omnipresent (present everywhere)? 2 Corinthians 2:14

Who is Lord of Sabbath? Matthew 12:8

Who is the great "I am?" John 8:58

Who is the only creator? John 1:3

Who is the only savior? Acts 4:12

Who will judge mankind? 2 Corinthians 5:10

Who will judge between the sheep and goats? Matthew 25:31-33

Who sent the prophets? Matthew 23:34

Who is "coming in glory?" Matthew 24:30

Who is the "first and last?" Revelation 1:17

Who is Rock of salvation? 1 Corinthians 10:4

Who is Stone of stumbling? 1 Peter 2:8

After all the above truth, how could an organization like Jehovahs’ Witness could be considered Christian, represents Christianity or its founder the Lord J. Christ?

[Checkpoint]

And part two of this OP question is directed primarily to Evangelicals, why don't you consider JWs to be Christian?

Any answer to this question will express a fondness for some interpretations of scripture over others. While both sides do in fact have their spokespersons who claim to never interpret anything but they just point out what is written, this stance is disingenuous at best and downright serpentine at worst.

Therefore the famous call to is meaningless because without the leading of the Holy Spirit, you are depending upon your own understanding against HIS advice. It is my firm belief that those who demand more study are those who do not know the leading of the Spirit. Seek HIM first, then follow His lead which may be more study.

Indeed, well put.

That is the challenge, to hear and respond to what the Spirit is saying.

Too often all we hear is our own voice telling ourselves and others our take is the right one. After all, what we say is faithful to "the organisation", or to tradition, or to what "the experts" say. Or to what the scriptures, which unknowingly we have eisegeted, say to us.

I have changed my opinion about what I believed to be true many things. I vacillated for years between an Arminian pov against the Calvinist until I made up my mind I was being led to accept that they were both wrong. That does not mean that I think everyone in these congregations are Satanic or non-Christians because I know that I myself used to be there and if I can be led out, anyone can be.

Nor do I believe that every sinful elect must understand the fullness of a correct theology to be saved. Faith in Christ is all that is needed for salvation whether you are too emotionally or mentally incapacitated to learn theology or not.

I too have changed my view on a number of things. We are all fallible, and so are those we recognise as wise in these matters. We see only in part.

Any error is just as evil as any other error. No one is without theological error because we don't know the full truth yet, yet we have no holes in our theologies....therefore our patch jobs look like the gospel truth and we can't tell the difference.

Whether we are saved, whether we really are a Christian, is not determined by our views on this or that doctrine. Those are outward things, God looks on the heart.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

We do consider all those groups "Christians" in the sense they claime to follow christ.
Jehovah's Witnesses the name has been applied to any that claim to follow christ, Catholics and Protestants (even Mormons) come under that umbrella term, sometimes refered to as "Christendom".

Many consider members of Christendom as "mainstream" christians and Jehovah's Witnesses non-mainstream, I think that there is merit in this distinction.

JW

Thanks for the clarification, I agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians...so let me redirect the OP now primarily to Evangelicals. (all are welcome to opine as well)

How can you say that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians? What, in your minds, defines a "Christian"?

You are welcome. May I ask you a personal question? Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, what is a Christian in your opinion. If not, why not?

[arian]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Why Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) teaching and practices are not Christian?

First, let us answer the question, who is considered Christian?

In 1John 4:2 we have been told, “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God�, And in 1Timothy 3:16, we read, “great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,…�

Here you can see a simple explanation: God who is capable of doing anything, decided at one point in time to appear in a form of a man to fulfill a great purpose.

WHERE do you see in there God taking the form of a man? Was Moses God too? God was manifested in Moses too, where Moses was like God to both Pharaoh and Aaron, but Moses was NOT God, OK!

That is the Christian Religions pipe-dream, to turn a man by deifying him into God, which is turning God into a man. It never happened, because Infinite cannot become finite.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,

Yep, in the beginning was the Word. Do you know who the Word is? It's all there throughout the NT, it is Gods Son whose name is Word.

.. and the Word was with God,

yep, .. the Word was with God, .. not; 'God was with God', .. right?

.. and the Word was God.

yep, .. and the Word was God before God created, or beget Him. You want to see an image of that? Yes, well in Genesis God told His son Word that He wanted to create an "image" of Him and His son Word, remember that? You know, "Let us make man in our own image, in our own likeness, .. so God created them male and female. The male Adam was to represent God, and the female Eve was to represent the Son Word.

Just as the Son was God before God created Him, Eve was Adam before God took her out of him, and created her from Adams rib. So yes, just as Adams rib was Adam, the Word was God. Do you see the Image there?

2 He was in the beginning with God.

NOT; 'God was in the beginning with God, but He, the Son Word was in the beginning with God. God is Infinite and Eternal, He has no beginning nor end, but the Son IS the beginning and the end, both the Alpha and Omega because ..

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

so you see, that's why the Word is the beginning and the end, because everything was made through him, and the last thing that God creates will be through him too, so he IS the beginning and the end.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

wait, .. so who became flesh? Does it say "And the God became flesh and dwelt among us?" NO. It's as clear as day, the Word, which both you and I know is Gods Word who became flesh. What was he to be called now?

Jesus, the Word of God.
Do you know that both you and I are actually called to be the "Words of God", .. and yes, even "Children of God" which the Jews at the time would kill us too if we claimed that, .. just as they wanted to kill Jesus after He claimed He was the Son of God, .. remember?

If Jehovah's’ Witness teaching is in line with the Bible, how come they do not believe that Christ is God appearing in a form of a man and, simply, if you will, equal to God?

Because it is NOT Biblical teaching, maybe that's why? Jesus said "My Father is greater than I, .. that He is my God and your God". Jesus NEVER said; "I am God", never. It was the Catholic Religion that turned, .. or deified Jesus as one of their gods, their sun-god in particular. And who exactly is the Christians sun-god?

Come on, ALL Christians know this and pray to him, .. the Pope even announced it before the whole world: their sun-god Jesus is none other than Lucifer, for whom Christians become mediums to, .. diviners, get a degree in Divinity by going to study all the Roman and Greek gods in theology in a School of Divinity.

I mean can you imagine what God thinks of this Trinity (demonic) doctrine? That God, the Only Infinite and Eternal God would bow down and pray to another form of God as Jesus did almost non stop, and told us to "always pray" too, so we too could once again be accepted by our Creator as His Children!?

But since the JW's are just another denomination of the Christian Religion, they deny one blasphemy, .. only to make up a dozen more instead of it. That's what religion , .. any religion does, create their own version of god/gods.

Science defines God as Infinite, while religions create gods and give them names, define what these gods can or cannot do, .. what you and I their goats should think and do, .. and interpret the Bible what these poor gods in there really meant to say but just weren't able to because they are diviners, mediums who can connect with the divining spirits who dwell in the supernatural realm and now through their spirits can speak for these gods through divinations.

Jehovahs’ Witness believes that Lord Christ is just one of his creations and is inferior to God.

OK, .. and? That's what the Bible teaches, so?
What are you going to say next, that they sing hymns too?

Point out what the Christian religions believe that is NOT Biblical, like how the Baptists believe in the triune-plural-multi-gods, at least three, the 7th-D Adventists serve the Sabbath-god, and if you don't bow down to the Sabbath-god you are doomed. Or the JW's believe if you don't call upon their Jehovah-Witness-god by name, you are praying in vain and you will not be one of the, .. what is it up to now, .. 40, 50,000? I don't know anymore, but they better higher the numbers because even with 40,000, 7 million, nine hundred and sixty thousand from the 8 million JW's will be looking for hell, which the JW's closed down. I mean hey, that seems like a nice thing, but it isn't Biblical.

This is a belief that is in a stark contrast to the overwhelming Biblical teaching declaring the fact that Lord Christ is one with God and is God.
I would like to provide here few, yet, very clear and powerful Biblical verses attested to the fact that Lord Crist is indeed God manifested himself in a form of a man.

Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? Philippians 3:20-21

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

What, so Mormo was right in telling Joseph Smith that he is God? That Jesus will turn his lowly body into Gods body?? That what God is, man will become?? That God has a body, even this "glorious body" that men will be transformed into??

What will be the difference between God, and us? Or father-god, sun-god and us-gods if we all have the glorious bodies? How about spirit-god, will he finally get a body too? Why is spirit-god (who is actually father god because he is the one who came into Mary where she got pregnant) always left out?

Yes, we will get a glorious body like Gods Son, but God does not have a body, how would you incase Infinite? God is an Invisible Spirit, who is also Holy, and that is what God will always be; and Infinite, Eternal Spirit, whose Glory will shine on His Throne, with Jesus sitting right next to Him. His presence, not some glorious body.

Who is omniscient (all knowing)? Colossians 2:2-3

Colossians 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

This is not saying Jesus is all knowing! Where in the world do you get that? This simply says that Jesus came to reveal God to us, because Christ, is in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Get it? He is the light that reveals God to us, Gods true character (because in the OT God had to be real tough on His children because of disobedience and unbelief, so He wanted to show them that they could never keep His laws with a pure heart, so he was tough on them, but in reality, He is a gentle and loving God, and Jesus revealed that to us.

And because of this, God has raised Him above all powers and principalities, .. do you actually think God needs to be raised any higher than He is??
He is Infinite and Eternal, the Creator of ALL things including His Son Word, .. how could you raise God any Higher if you say Jesus was fully man and fully God??

Who is omnipresent (present everywhere)? 2 Corinthians 2:14

2 Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place.

Where do you see Jesus being present everywhere?

Who is Lord of Sabbath? Matthew 12:8

Who is the great "I am?" John 8:58

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.�

There are 760 "I am's" in the Bible, here is another:

Genesis 22:7
But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!� And he said, “Here I AM, my son.� Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?�

There, I capitalized I am in there and turned Abraham into God himself.
"I am Hungry, .. I am 44 years before my son, .. I am alone, .. etc." this does not mean I am God. If Jesus was God, He would have said it straight out as He did everything else. Or do you thing God would be scared to do that?

When Moses asked God "who He was", not when He was, but who He was, .. God answered "I Am Who I Am", that sums up Infinite. "And there is no other God besides Me", again that sums up Infinite, since there cannot be anything or anyone besides something or someone who is already boundless, without borders.

Who is the only creator? John 1:3

John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

God created everything through His son Word, .. like binary code in a computer world. God did not create everything through God, or for God, God doesn't need anything, but did it all for His Son. It's all in the Bible.

Ever hire a contractor to build you a house? You build your house "through" your contractor. Only this is a ;little different, God used His son Word as a source of His creation too.

Who is the only savior? Acts 4:12

My God, .. yes, God "SENT" His Son to save the world, remember? Why?
Because God couldn't find anyone else, neither in Heaven, nor on earth who could do it. Remember God is Infinite Spirit, He works through his Creation when He does something.

Who will judge mankind? 2 Corinthians 5:10

Who will judge between the sheep and goats? Matthew 25:31-33

Who sent the prophets? Matthew 23:34

Who is "coming in glory?" Matthew 24:30

Who is the "first and last?" Revelation 1:17

Who is Rock of salvation? 1 Corinthians 10:4

Who is Stone of stumbling? 1 Peter 2:8

After all the above truth, how could an organization like Jehovahs’ Witness could be considered Christian, represents Christianity or its founder the Lord J. Christ?

Yes, only a Christian Religion, or one of its 40,000 denominations could twist all the above to where they miss everything in there and make Gods Son Word into a deity who lives in the supernatural realm. A deity, like the deified angel Lucifer, the sun-god, or deify the Pope into the Holiest Father, blasphemy, all blasphemy.

I know, I know, who cares.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Elijah John]

Why Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) teaching and practices are not Christian?

First, let us answer the question, who is considered Christian?

In 1John 4:2 we have been told, “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God�, And in 1Timothy 3:16, we read, “great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,…� Here you can see a simple explanation: God who is capable of doing anything, decided at one point in time to appear in a form of a man to fulfill a great purpose.

Even so, neither John, nor Paul were defining a Christian in those passages. Souldn't we leave that to God and Jesus who said "anyone that does the will of my Father is my brother, my sister, my mother...etc"?

If Jehovahs’ Witness teaching is in line with the Bible, how come they do not believe that Christ is God appearing in a form of a man and, simply, if you will, equal to God?

Because there is more Biblical evidence to support their position in this.

Jehovahs’ Witness believes that Lord Christ is just one of his creations and is inferior to God.

Jesus is a Creature, the first of YHVH God's Creation, according to the Bible, and even Paul declares "through whom all things were made". YHVH's agent of Creation.

This is a belief that is in a stark contrast to the overwhelming Biblical teaching declaring the fact that Lord Christ is one with God and is God.

That is a highly debatable assertion not supported by Scripture. One line in the prologue to John does not "overwhelming Biblical teaching" make. Where then, does the Bible say these three simple words: "Jesus is God"? Where does Jesus himself ever say. "I am God"?

By contrast, the Bible does say, "YHVH is God" and has YHVH saying "I am God".

I would like to provide here few, yet, very clear and powerful Biblical verses attested to the fact that Lord Crist is indeed God manifested himself in a form of a man.

Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? Philippians 3:20-21

Only YHVH, there were things Jesus couldn't do because of the lack of faith of others at times.

Who is omniscient (all knowing)? Colossians 2:2-3

YHVH alone, Jesus did not know the exact hour and day of his return, by his own admission, "only the Father knows" according to the Evangelist John.

Who is omnipresent (present everywhere)? 2 Corinthians 2:14

Only YHVH. Before his death and resurrection, Jesus was confined to a human body, afterward his ascension, Jesus is seated at the right hand of God in Heaven.

The Spirit of YHVH, on the otherhand, is immanent, with us, and in us.

Who is Lord of Sabbath? Matthew 12:8

That's "Lord" of the Sabbath, not "LORD" of the Sabbath. The Good LORD YHVH, gave Jesus authority to interpret the Sabbath, as other Rabbi's have done before him.

Who is the great "I am?" John 8:58

According to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses and all the other prophets, YHVH alone, not Jesus. Even John contradicts himself in 17.3 when he has Jesus calling the Father, "the only true God".

Who is the only creator? John 1:3

YHVH, who made Heaven and Earth. Is John denying the Father's role?

Who is the only savior? Acts 4:12

Once again, it is YHVH, there is none other. (Isaiah 43.11, Hosea 13.4) My JW and Evangelical friends may disagree with me here, though.

Who will judge mankind? 2 Corinthians 5:10

There is one who judges, YHVH, the Father, according to John.

Who will judge between the sheep and goats? Matthew 25:31-33

Seems YHVH has given that job to Jesus, according to Matthew, in contradiction to John?

Who sent the prophets? Matthew 23:34

According to Matthew, Jesus, according to the Hebrew Bible, YHVH or His angels commisioned them.

Who is "coming in glory?" Matthew 24:30

The "Son of Man". But that was supposed to have happened in the lifetime of Jesus' apostles. What kind of "god" makes a mistake like that? (Mathew 24.34)

Who is the "first and last?" Revelation 1:17

YHVH, the Father. (Is 44.6, 48.12)

Who is Rock of salvation? 1 Corinthians 10:4

Only YHVH, (Is 44.8, Ps. 18.31)

Who is Stone of stumbling? 1 Peter 2:8

Jesus, but that can be applied to others, David was also not considered at first, but then became King.

So...that verse says nothing about Divinity.

And the name of God Himself has been rejected and obscured, but will become the cornerstone, as YHVH indicates through Isaiah 45 23,24,

"To me every knee shall bow, every tongue will swear." Only in YHVH it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength:"

After all the above truth, how could an organization like Jehovahs’ Witness could be considered Christian, represents Christianity or its founder the Lord J. Christ?

For the reasons I cited above, and my refutations. They reject the idea Jesus is God, they do not reject Jesus nor do they reject his teachings.

And where I diverge from them, (though still consider them Christian, as I do Evangelicals etc,... "Jesus is God" does not define Christianity.)
John, Paul an other NT misappropriated OT/Hebrew Bible passages and attributions of YHVH God alone, (the Father) and co-opted them and applied them to Jesus.

But doing so, does not make it so. They have stolen glory from YHVH God, and tried to make the human Jesus into "God".

Nowhere in the Hebew Bible are any of these things to be applied to the Messiah.

And Christians claim the OT/Hebrew Bible as the foundation of the NT, but as demonstrated, they misapply it.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

We do consider all those groups "Christians" in the sense they claime to follow christ.
Jehovah's Witnesses the name has been applied to any that claim to follow christ, Catholics and Protestants (even Mormons) come under that umbrella term, sometimes refered to as "Christendom".

Many consider members of Christendom as "mainstream" christians and Jehovah's Witnesses non-mainstream, I think that there is merit in this distinction.

JW

Thanks for the clarification, I agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians...so let me redirect the OP now primarily to Evangelicals. (all are welcome to opine as well)

How can you say that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians? What, in your minds, defines a "Christian"?

You are welcome. May I ask you a personal question? Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, what is a Christian in your opinion. If not, why not?

Yes I do...I have a very broad understanding of what a Christian is, that includes folks who differ with my theology.

My understanding:

-A Christian is someone devoted to the God of Jesus, YHVH and all of the following:

-A Christian is someone who prays Jesus prayer, the Lord's prayer. (or uses it as a model for prayer)

-A Christian is one who embraces Jesus' Golden rule and strives to put it onto practice.

-A Christian is one who accepts YHVH as their Heavenly Father and His mercy, as Jesus taught.

-A Christian is one who considers Jesus teachings and interpretation of Torah more important than anyone else's.

This definition covers Evangelicals, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Mormons...any Christ centered religion. It also covers "heretics" like me!