If you didn't want to believe in Christianity...

[Justin108]

If you didn't want to believe in Christianity, would you stop believing? Suppose you didn't like Christianity at all. Suppose you didn't like the idea of Jesus dying for your sins, an afterlife, etc. would your belief in Christianity stop?

If not, what is it about Christianity that makes any alternative so absolutely unbelievable?

[MadeNew]

Well i don't put my trust about the reality of God on speculation.

Nothing wrong with speculation. Truth should be able to stand up to this sort of thing.

I can't afford to rely on speculation on such an important matter.

You're presuming it's an important matter. Why should anyone see it as an important matter? For it to be considered an important matter, I need proof of its importance. I have no interest in trying to prove something that I don't see as important.

But one should also be careful not to be gullible when it comes to important matters too. Believing everything without question will open you up to believing all sorts of nonsense.

The conviction of an open heart should direct all who believe, it is the evidence of things not seen.

Not if the evidence is not there. Not if it's pure fantasy.

You think it is on others to provide you evidence? Wrong,

No, YOU are wrong. You are the one insisting its an important matter. You need to prove its important.

If someone wants me to believe something then it IS up to them to provide evidence. Unless of course they can convince me that it's important enough for me to go find it. But remember I spent 40 years searching for evidence but never found it. Why would I want to waste any more time?

Nope, I wouldn't. I've done my searching. I did my looking for evidence. It lead me to atheism.

it is on you to seek God for yourself.

Which I did for 40 years. If any one wants me to waste any more time on that, then they're gonna have to be the ones to come up with the evidence. I've wasted enough of my valuable time.

Jesus said "seek and you will find".

A clear lie from Jesus. I did seek for over 40 years. I sought diligently. I didnt' find. So there is no point in quoting that obvious lie to me.

The story of Jesus is explained. In fact it is explained perfectly, with the t's crossed and the i's dotted.

No actually it isn't. There are many glaring questions and problems with it, which nobody seems to be able to answer adequately.

But you doubt on nothing more then speculation.

Nope. You are wrong yet again. It's way more than speculation. 40 years of diligently seeking. How many years have you spent on it?

Can you tell me about your 40 years of 'seeking'? Were you ever a believer? What did you believe? Why?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 66 by MadeNew]


Hmm...

Now this might be refreshing; a Christian vs. a Christian on evidence for Christianity!

I have never understood irony, but, is this ironic?

Here is the whole:

The objectivity of Christianity? I debate it all the time. That Jesus really is the Son of God. Jesus came and fulfilled the scripture, he fulfilled the law, the prophesies, he fulfilled the seat of the Messiah. He came and lived, died, and was resurrected, which would prove His claim as the Son of God. I believe this isn't only the best explanation for Christianity's existence, it is the only reasonable one.

Alright, particulars:

Jesus came and fulfilled the scripture, he fulfilled the law, the prophesies, he fulfilled the seat of the Messiah.

Fulfilled the prophesies? fulfilled the seat of Messiah?

What explicit prophecies are you referring to? Referencing the psalms won't work: they weren't prophecies. Quoting matthean fulfillment oracles won't work either; they weren't prophecies.

There are two prophecies that Jesus might have fulfilled: born of a virgin (if in fact that Isaianic passage is a davidic king prophecy) and born in Bethlehem (the details of which Matthew and Luke disagree, and the importance of which doesn't even make it into the earliest stratum of Christianity--i.e. Paul.).

What did Jesus NOT do? What any modern Jew can tell you. He did not bring Israel back into a single nation. He did not bind the nations under the Jewish law (in fact, his successors did the opposite).

The historic Jesus failed almost all of the limited (and they were limited: the Jewish Messiah never loomed so large in 1st c. Jewish thought as he did in 1st c. Christian thought) offices assigned him.


The N,T. authors believed Jesus was raised from the dead. Something that should not have happened according to their sacred texts ( I mean this: the resurrection was depicted as a corporate-end of the world kind of thing. No prophet ever suggested it would happen to one person, and that the davidic king, in the middle of history).

Because of this, they went back to those sacred texts and reinterpreted them in light of this belief.

Thus they found themes, motifs, typologies that resonated with the life and death of their master. These BECAME prophecies in their minds. But the prophecies postdate the one prophesied.

As an apologetic value to skeptics, it is useless. I do not say it is useless in itself; only as an apologetic tool.

[MadeNew]

[Replying to post 66 by MadeNew]


Hmm...

Now this might be refreshing; a Christian vs. a Christian on evidence for Christianity!

I have never understood irony, but, is this ironic?

Here is the whole:

The objectivity of Christianity? I debate it all the time. That Jesus really is the Son of God. Jesus came and fulfilled the scripture, he fulfilled the law, the prophesies, he fulfilled the seat of the Messiah. He came and lived, died, and was resurrected, which would prove His claim as the Son of God. I believe this isn't only the best explanation for Christianity's existence, it is the only reasonable one.

Alright, particulars:

Jesus came and fulfilled the scripture, he fulfilled the law, the prophesies, he fulfilled the seat of the Messiah.

Fulfilled the prophesies? fulfilled the seat of Messiah?

What explicit prophecies are you referring to? Referencing the psalms won't work: they weren't prophecies. Quoting matthean fulfillment oracles won't work either; they weren't prophecies.

There are two prophecies that Jesus might have fulfilled: born of a virgin (if in fact that Isaianic passage is a davidic king prophecy) and born in Bethlehem (the details of which Matthew and Luke disagree, and the importance of which doesn't even make it into the earliest stratum of Christianity--i.e. Paul.).

What did Jesus NOT do? What any modern Jew can tell you. He did not bring Israel back into a single nation. He did not bind the nations under the Jewish law (in fact, his successors did the opposite).

The historic Jesus failed almost all of the limited (and they were limited: the Jewish Messiah never loomed so large in 1st c. Jewish thought as he did in 1st c. Christian thought) offices assigned him.


The N,T. authors believed Jesus was raised from the dead. Something that should not have happened according to their sacred texts ( I mean this: the resurrection was depicted as a corporate-end of the world kind of thing. No prophet ever suggested it would happen to one person, and that the davidic king, in the middle of history).

Because of this, they went back to those sacred texts and reinterpreted them in light of this belief.

Thus they found themes, motifs, typologies that resonated with the life and death of their master. These BECAME prophecies in their minds. But the prophecies postdate the one prophesied.

As an apologetic value to skeptics, it is useless. I do not say it is useless in itself; only as an apologetic tool.

What exactly do you believe? There are 12 minor prophets and 4 major prophets, right? And they prophesied about Jesus, right?

Do you believe there are prophesies about Jesus? Do you believe Jesus was raised from the dead? What do you believe?

[Justin108]

But if you compiled a book of 700,000 words, with nearly 230,000 words of it as prophesy, and just by chance got it all right... That is pretty much statistically impossible...

Until you actually tell me what these hundreds of prophecies are, I cannot comment. So please, stop dancing around the request for prophecies and just list them. You don't even have to list all of them. Name your top 10 most remarkable. Top 5 if 10 is too much

Im not going to dig out specific prophesies.

Then you're wasting my time. You're making a claim but you refuse to support it.

I have seen these rebuttals before, and none of them have ever came back with a false prophesy.

And they don't need to. My rebuttals usually either prove that the prophecies are unremarkable - like predicting it will rain, or not confirmed to be true - like Jesus coming back from the dead.

If you can come back with false prophesies, then do that

You're shifting the burden of proof. You claimed that Jesus fulfilled several prophecies. it's your job to support your claim.

Statistically speaking, if you predicted it would rain tomorrow maybe that would be dumb luck, but if you did that 230,000 times in a row... Gets a bit outrageous doesn't it?

You insist that 230 000 prophecies came true but you cannot even mention 10.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 66 by MadeNew]

[center]A statement of belief is not an argument or evidence for what is believed.[/center]

The objectivity of Christianity? I debate it all the time. That Jesus really is the Son of God. Jesus came and fulfilled the scripture, he fulfilled the law, the prophesies, he fulfilled the seat of the Messiah. He came and lived, died, and was resurrected, which would prove His claim as the Son of God. I believe this isn't only the best explanation for Christianity's existence, it is the only reasonable one.

That's not an argument, that's a statement of belief.

In this forum, we are asked, when challenged, to provide evidence that a statement is true. Please provide evidence that the above statement is true in reality, and not just what you happen to believe is true.

Consider yourself challenged.

[OnceConvinced]

Can you tell me about your 40 years of 'seeking'? Were you ever a believer? What did you believe? Why?

It's a big question, but I was brought up in a Christian home never doubting that what I was taught was true. I believed that Jesus was the son of god and that I was a sinner and that I needed to repent and be born again. Which I did. I was also baptised. I never questioned God ever until I reached my 30s. I was dedicated to Christ right up until the time I realised I no longer believed. I studied the bible, prayed every day on a regular basis and got involved in many outreaches and ministries. Taught Sunday school, ran home groups, did Christian stage dramas and much more.

To go into my beliefs would take too much time, but here is my story on this site. I have a larger version that goes a lot more into my thought patterns, which I can PM to anyone who's interested.

My brief story

[MadeNew]

Can you tell me about your 40 years of 'seeking'? Were you ever a believer? What did you believe? Why?

It's a big question, but I was brought up in a Christian home never doubting that what I was taught was true. I believed that Jesus was the son of god and that I was a sinner and that I needed to repent and be born again. Which I did. I was also baptised. I never questioned God ever until I reached my 30s. I was dedicated to Christ right up until the time I realised I no longer believed. I studied the bible, prayed every day on a regular basis and got involved in many outreaches and ministries. Taught Sunday school, ran home groups, did Christian stage dramas and much more.

To go into my beliefs would take too much time, but here is my story on this site. I have a larger version that goes a lot more into my thought patterns, which I can PM to anyone who's interested.

My brief story

So you realized you never really believed in Christianity? i.e. you realized you were never really a Christian?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 76 by OnceConvinced]

"My brief story"

I read most of it and whatever I say as an observer only so please do not take offence.

What struck me yu feel you missed out on life which seems you've been with some fundamentalists. I'd suggest that it was a grand stage in your life and you learned things you needed to learn. You stopped but important things are still there.

I've been there but after a break of around 20ys I went to all sorts of seminars - New Age, Theosophy, eastern religions/gurus..bought and read some amazing books. I found many of them instead of don't-touch, to be highly valuable. They all contributed to some degree whether clarifying things or finding new gems. I am thankful for every book I laid my hands on. Most of them would be from New Age shops and not Christian.
Might sound bit strange but I am more Christian now than ever.

It is God in our image or letting God be God and Himself revealing Himself His way. This is quite a mouthful but says a lot.
It is rare to find teaching of a just idea of God in Christian churches. They either keep traditional teaching according to someone from the past, or let in the things of the world which weaken them.

You needed answers and did not find them in that environment

I can not but remain with what I said, God is not hiding*

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 77 by MadeNew]
!


[center]The false Scotsman strikes again.[/center]

So you realized you never really believed in Christianity? i.e. you realized you were never really a Christian?

No, Madenew.. he realized that he DID.
Try reading it again slowly this time.....

What did you read that told you he was never a real Christian.. was it the part where he said that he WASN'T anymore? I used to be a school boy.. but I'm not anymore.. Does that mean I never was?

The "No true Scotsman " argument makes people sound RIDICULOUS.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Try to avoid it.

[PghPanther]

I don't see how you can choose to stop believing something. Belief, as far as I can see doesn't work that way. Likewise you can't choose to START believing something.

I'm actually an atheist that wants to believe in Christianity. I believed it for 40 years and never wanted to disbelieve it, but the disbelief was forced upon me. I had no choice in the matter. If I could have chosen to continue to believe, I would have and remained a Christian.

I wish I could believe again, because I loved being part of churches, working for God and having the comfortable beliefs that God was in control and that I had eternal life.

While Christianity wasn't forced on me and I accepted Christ on my account I felt the same way you did in everything about it..........especially the idea of seeing loved ones in heaven again that I lost.

But I learned that comfort and enjoyment doesn't make a world view true.....so in that way I experienced much that you did.

Although I must admit for me at the time the sermons at church seemed to get a lot longer when NFL Sunday games were in season.......lol!