The natural and the supernatural are obviously two very different things.
The supernatural exists outside of what we call natural, it is by definition not natural.
If something is not natural calling it unnatural is the same as saying it is not natural.
If god is supernatural then by definition god is unnatural.
Is the Supernatural Natural?
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Post #51
[Replying to post 50 by Blastcat]
Well you are wrong once again and making petty arguments about semantics to cover your own inability to make any worthwhile arguments. I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself.
Well you are wrong once again and making petty arguments about semantics to cover your own inability to make any worthwhile arguments. I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself.
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dianaiad
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Post #52
man wrote: [Replying to post 50 by Blastcat]
Well you are wrong once again and making petty arguments about semantics to cover your own inability to make any worthwhile arguments. I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself.
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Re: Is the Supernatural Natural?
Post #53[Replying to post 48 by Blastcat]
"1. You've stated that Some "beings" are "Not limited by the laws of nature and time/space. I believe there are people who are more advanced and are not bound by the laws of nature in many ways. " Could you clarify what it means to be not limited by the laws of nature? Are you describing magicians for example?"
>>No magicians or miracle workers.
2. How can beings within time/space not be bound by the laws of time/space?
>>You master them. 'Man know thyself'.
3. Are you saying that "God" is the universe?
>>No.
4. A new question that just occurred to me to ask you is : " How can we verify your assertions?"
>>World wide internet, multiple book stores....you can start with Carlos Casteneda's the Active Side of Infinity which I read many years ago. Doubt you'll get anything out of it or anything else similar. Once entrenched in own views, it is like like camel though the needle;)
"1. You've stated that Some "beings" are "Not limited by the laws of nature and time/space. I believe there are people who are more advanced and are not bound by the laws of nature in many ways. " Could you clarify what it means to be not limited by the laws of nature? Are you describing magicians for example?"
>>No magicians or miracle workers.
2. How can beings within time/space not be bound by the laws of time/space?
>>You master them. 'Man know thyself'.
3. Are you saying that "God" is the universe?
>>No.
4. A new question that just occurred to me to ask you is : " How can we verify your assertions?"
>>World wide internet, multiple book stores....you can start with Carlos Casteneda's the Active Side of Infinity which I read many years ago. Doubt you'll get anything out of it or anything else similar. Once entrenched in own views, it is like like camel though the needle;)
Re: Is the Supernatural Natural?
Post #54[Replying to post 53 by Monta]
!
[center]Please elaborate[/center]
Big planes fly over our heads all the time.. these very heavy objects seem to have been created by people who have been able to "master the laws of nature".
Are you talking about science being able to harness nature for the betterment of mankind? Somehow... I don't think that's what you mean. If someone was able to 'master the laws of nature", without using science.. and say.. walk through a wall or something spectacular like that... I would would be impressed. And then, I would suspect some kind of a deception. We would have to rule that out, anyway.
But if we HAD no natural explanation, and the person did seem to defy the laws of nature.. what do you call that, if not magical or miraculous? You said no magicians or miracle workers.. so, what's the mechanism by which they would be able to "master the laws of nature"?
I think I understand what you mean by "know thyself" , I call that introspection and analysis... But I don't know what you mean by "mastering the laws of nature". Could you elaborate? Do you mean perhaps, defying the laws of nature... like the comic book character "Superman", who can, among other things, fly?
If it's natural to fly around like that.. it's just natural. Rare, perhaps. Is that what you mean? .. whatever happens in our universe is natural? I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to tell us...
And right now.. I don't have a handle on it.
Catenada wrote about experiences while being under the influence of peyote and jimson weed, both hallucinogenic drugs. Castaneda often referred to this unknown realm as nonordinary reality. Is taking such drugs that results in an experience of a nonordinary reality what you are talking about?
!
[center]Please elaborate[/center]
Blastcat wrote: "1. You've stated that Some "beings" are "Not limited by the laws of nature and time/space. I believe there are people who are more advanced and are not bound by the laws of nature in many ways. " Could you clarify what it means to be not limited by the laws of nature? Are you describing magicians for example?"
What kind of beings are you talking about then?
Blastcat wrote: 2. How can beings within time/space not be bound by the laws of time/space?
"Master the laws of nature"
Big planes fly over our heads all the time.. these very heavy objects seem to have been created by people who have been able to "master the laws of nature".
Are you talking about science being able to harness nature for the betterment of mankind? Somehow... I don't think that's what you mean. If someone was able to 'master the laws of nature", without using science.. and say.. walk through a wall or something spectacular like that... I would would be impressed. And then, I would suspect some kind of a deception. We would have to rule that out, anyway.
But if we HAD no natural explanation, and the person did seem to defy the laws of nature.. what do you call that, if not magical or miraculous? You said no magicians or miracle workers.. so, what's the mechanism by which they would be able to "master the laws of nature"?
I think I understand what you mean by "know thyself" , I call that introspection and analysis... But I don't know what you mean by "mastering the laws of nature". Could you elaborate? Do you mean perhaps, defying the laws of nature... like the comic book character "Superman", who can, among other things, fly?
If it's natural to fly around like that.. it's just natural. Rare, perhaps. Is that what you mean? .. whatever happens in our universe is natural? I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is you are trying to tell us...
And right now.. I don't have a handle on it.
Blastcat wrote: 3. Are you saying that "God" is the universe?
Then what are you saying about God, exactly?
Blastcat wrote: 4. A new question that just occurred to me to ask you is : " How can we verify your assertions?"
You say that you believe there are people who are more advanced and are not bound by the laws of nature in many ways. Is Carlos Casteneda one of these people ( not magician nor miracle worker, but a shaman or a nagual ) you are talking about?Monta wrote:
>>World wide internet, multiple book stores....you can start with Carlos Casteneda's the Active Side of Infinity which I read many years ago. Doubt you'll get anything out of it or anything else similar. Once entrenched in own views, it is like like camel though the needle;)
Catenada wrote about experiences while being under the influence of peyote and jimson weed, both hallucinogenic drugs. Castaneda often referred to this unknown realm as nonordinary reality. Is taking such drugs that results in an experience of a nonordinary reality what you are talking about?
Re: Is the Supernatural Natural?
Post #55[Replying to Blastcat]
"Then what are you saying about God, exactly?
Blastcat wrote:
4. A new question that just occurred to me to ask you is : " How can we verify your assertions?"
I have read countless of books for many years and you want it in a nutshell?
"Divine (infinite and eternal) Love Wisdom and Use".
I do not hang my ideas on one person/writer/book. Casteneda was one of many stepping stones to see that 'reality' can be more than our three senses. Whatever he took whatever limited or expanded brain/mind abilities were part of 'human' essence of us humans. It would be a door opener of what is there in 'what we are'.
Some can do all this at will, no drugs just entering the inner states of 'self'.
Sorry they will not come out and show off to the world, that is not how it works. Meanwhile you or me or anyone have to find our own truth for ourselves.
"Then what are you saying about God, exactly?
Blastcat wrote:
4. A new question that just occurred to me to ask you is : " How can we verify your assertions?"
I have read countless of books for many years and you want it in a nutshell?
"Divine (infinite and eternal) Love Wisdom and Use".
I do not hang my ideas on one person/writer/book. Casteneda was one of many stepping stones to see that 'reality' can be more than our three senses. Whatever he took whatever limited or expanded brain/mind abilities were part of 'human' essence of us humans. It would be a door opener of what is there in 'what we are'.
Some can do all this at will, no drugs just entering the inner states of 'self'.
Sorry they will not come out and show off to the world, that is not how it works. Meanwhile you or me or anyone have to find our own truth for ourselves.
Re: Is the Supernatural Natural?
Post #56[Replying to post 55 by Monta]
!
[center]Some people believe that giving evidence would be "showing off".[/center]
Many people have read many books. But not all have arrived at your conclusions.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014111 ... o-you-have
I call that a good example of a deepity.
Some doors lead to more doors within our mind. How are we to know if our thoughts concerning our thoughts are MORE than just thoughts?
I've heard it claimed many times that taking some drugs "expands the mind" and is a "door to perception". I have no evidence that these altered brain states gives us any more knowledge about the real world. I have a lot of evidence that altered brain states gives us great poetry and fiction, and sometimes, unwarranted beliefs.
I don't take poetry and fiction as objectively true... Subjectively true, yes.
I see a subtle difference between those two kinds of "truth".
Do you?
Altered states of consciousness can be obtained by starvation and sense deprivation, too. It's very interesting stuff. Humans have the capacity to alter their brain states.
I get high from art and nature... altered state. Booze is also conducive to an altered state. So is rock climbing. There are "zones" we can get in.. not rocket science.. just being alive and focused on a task.
In other words, what these mystics are describing is to me .. NO BIG DEAL.
Focus is great. I'm focusing right now.. and I am NOT pretending to be a mystical guru.
It's another thing entirely to say that an altered consciousness is able to observe some OUTSIDE reality... when we also know that different brain states interpret reality in different ways than our normal ways. I would also add that it might be a little more difficult to think critically under an altered state of mind. Usually, when people are describing these altered states.. they seem to all throw away rationality... and go for the poetic, subjective and vague, instead.
Like what Chopra does, just like Castaneda, and what you seem to be doing.
Well, if Deepak or Carlos are not going to prove that their claims are true.. forget about them. Any one can make claims. It's another thing to prove them true.
Chopra is a very public figure, and so was Castaneda.. they have "shown off" their CLAIMS a lot.
I've seen Deepak's smiling happy face all over the internet and TV claiming this and that about reality. I've read all of Carlo's entertaining books. However, apparently, giving proof would just be showing off...
So.. no proof. And these prophets stay as humble as they might desire to be.
Their claims, however, remain completely unjustified.
Are you a fan of this kind of unsupported claim making?
Oh, and by the way, you didn't answer this question:
"Then what are you saying about God, exactly?
!
[center]Some people believe that giving evidence would be "showing off".[/center]
Blastcat wrote: "Then what are you saying about God, exactly?
4. A new question that just occurred to me to ask you is : " How can we verify your assertions?"
Have you concluded that all of these books describe facts, opinions, or beliefs?Monta wrote:
I have read countless of books for many years and you want it in a nutshell?
"Divine (infinite and eternal) Love Wisdom and Use".
Many people have read many books. But not all have arrived at your conclusions.
"Defining what we mean by a “sense� leads you down a slippery slope into philosophy. One, somewhat vague, definition might argue that a human sense is simply a unique way for the brain to receive information about the world and the body. If that is the case, then we can claim with confidence that there are certainly more than five human senses."Monta wrote:
I do not hang my ideas on one person/writer/book. Casteneda was one of many stepping stones to see that 'reality' can be more than our three senses. Whatever he took whatever limited or expanded brain/mind abilities were part of 'human' essence of us humans.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2014111 ... o-you-have
"What is there in "what we are"."
I call that a good example of a deepity.
Some doors lead to more doors within our mind. How are we to know if our thoughts concerning our thoughts are MORE than just thoughts?
I've heard it claimed many times that taking some drugs "expands the mind" and is a "door to perception". I have no evidence that these altered brain states gives us any more knowledge about the real world. I have a lot of evidence that altered brain states gives us great poetry and fiction, and sometimes, unwarranted beliefs.
I don't take poetry and fiction as objectively true... Subjectively true, yes.
I see a subtle difference between those two kinds of "truth".
Do you?
People claim all sorts of things.
Altered states of consciousness can be obtained by starvation and sense deprivation, too. It's very interesting stuff. Humans have the capacity to alter their brain states.
I get high from art and nature... altered state. Booze is also conducive to an altered state. So is rock climbing. There are "zones" we can get in.. not rocket science.. just being alive and focused on a task.
In other words, what these mystics are describing is to me .. NO BIG DEAL.
Focus is great. I'm focusing right now.. and I am NOT pretending to be a mystical guru.
It's another thing entirely to say that an altered consciousness is able to observe some OUTSIDE reality... when we also know that different brain states interpret reality in different ways than our normal ways. I would also add that it might be a little more difficult to think critically under an altered state of mind. Usually, when people are describing these altered states.. they seem to all throw away rationality... and go for the poetic, subjective and vague, instead.
Like what Chopra does, just like Castaneda, and what you seem to be doing.
It surprises a skeptic when a claim is supported with such a bad excuse as " I don't want to show off by proving what I say is true, I'm WAY too humble to prove my claims, you see. I'm blushing because I'm so humble. "Monta wrote:
Sorry they will not come out and show off to the world, that is not how it works. Meanwhile you or me or anyone have to find our own truth for ourselves.
Well, if Deepak or Carlos are not going to prove that their claims are true.. forget about them. Any one can make claims. It's another thing to prove them true.
Chopra is a very public figure, and so was Castaneda.. they have "shown off" their CLAIMS a lot.
I've seen Deepak's smiling happy face all over the internet and TV claiming this and that about reality. I've read all of Carlo's entertaining books. However, apparently, giving proof would just be showing off...
So.. no proof. And these prophets stay as humble as they might desire to be.
Their claims, however, remain completely unjustified.
Are you a fan of this kind of unsupported claim making?
Oh, and by the way, you didn't answer this question:
"Then what are you saying about God, exactly?
Re: Is the Supernatural Natural?
Post #57[Replying to post 56 by Blastcat]
It surprises a skeptic when a claim is supported with such a bad excuse as " I don't want to show off by proving what I say is true, I'm WAY too humble to prove my claims, you see. I'm blushing because I'm so humble. " //
I did not mean it quite like that.
I suppose things have changed. Deepak and Casteneda years ago might have been institutionalised. Remember what happened to Edgar Casey? Then we have Robert Monroe who openly wrote three books and created Monroe Institute where you are taught deeper states of meditation, enter OBE and access other realities incl. the spiritual as in heaven what the Bible talks about. In one of his books Monroe states that he met a person who's lived for 600 years. He was very surprised that Monroe 'found' him; would he want his secret out? Certainly not. Monroe could not be more surprised and I have no reason to doubt him.
You say the mystical is no big deal and you are right. It is natural state of man as in the garden of Eden where God walked with Adam, or Jacob's ladder. It can be big deal where man is totally in the materialistic world.
What can I say about God exactly?
He is in all time and all space apart from time and space?
His very essence is Divine Love from which proceeds Divine Wisdom (Christ).
I am glad that eternity is 'long'-- how much more to learn.
It surprises a skeptic when a claim is supported with such a bad excuse as " I don't want to show off by proving what I say is true, I'm WAY too humble to prove my claims, you see. I'm blushing because I'm so humble. " //
I did not mean it quite like that.
I suppose things have changed. Deepak and Casteneda years ago might have been institutionalised. Remember what happened to Edgar Casey? Then we have Robert Monroe who openly wrote three books and created Monroe Institute where you are taught deeper states of meditation, enter OBE and access other realities incl. the spiritual as in heaven what the Bible talks about. In one of his books Monroe states that he met a person who's lived for 600 years. He was very surprised that Monroe 'found' him; would he want his secret out? Certainly not. Monroe could not be more surprised and I have no reason to doubt him.
You say the mystical is no big deal and you are right. It is natural state of man as in the garden of Eden where God walked with Adam, or Jacob's ladder. It can be big deal where man is totally in the materialistic world.
What can I say about God exactly?
He is in all time and all space apart from time and space?
His very essence is Divine Love from which proceeds Divine Wisdom (Christ).
I am glad that eternity is 'long'-- how much more to learn.
Re: Is the Supernatural Natural?
Post #58[Replying to post 57 by Monta]
!
"Everybody Must Get Stoned"
- Bob Dylan
Really no reason at all?
Do you believe anything anyone writes in a book?
My exact words were a little longer:
"People claim all sorts of things.
Altered states of consciousness can be obtained by starvation and sense deprivation, too. It's very interesting stuff. Humans have the capacity to alter their brain states.
I get high from art and nature... altered state. Booze is also conducive to an altered state. So is rock climbing. There are "zones" we can get in.. not rocket science.. just being alive and focused on a task.
In other words, what these mystics are describing is to me .. NO BIG DEAL.
Focus is great. I'm focusing right now.. and I am NOT pretending to be a mystical guru. "
I equate mystical wisdom with being enthusiastic about getting stoned. To which I say "Big deal".
I have no idea what that means. It SOUNDS really nice though.. You claim to know "the natural state of man". Unfortunately, skeptics do NOT believe just anything someone writes, so you would have to PROVE that you know anything at all about the "natural state of man", or that it reflects what some story in an old book says.
Unless you can prove your statement TRUE in any way, I have no choice but to completely ignore it as MEANINGLESS.
We wouldn't want to be THAT now.. would we?
Whatever your statement tries to say.. I have no idea.
Again, this is meaningless babble.
It's word salad, it's a deepity.
Where did you get that info?
I'm skeptical.
What is the source of your info?
I'm skeptical.
You express opinions and beliefs.. but I don't see any FACTS.
By what method do you use to "learn" what you claim to know about God ?
Why would I believe that you "know" anything at all about any "God"?
!
"Everybody Must Get Stoned"
- Bob Dylan
You have no reason to doubt that there is a human being who was 600 years old?Monta wrote:
In one of his books Monroe states that he met a person who's lived for 600 years. He was very surprised that Monroe 'found' him; would he want his secret out? Certainly not. Monroe could not be more surprised and I have no reason to doubt him.
Really no reason at all?
Do you believe anything anyone writes in a book?
I'm saying what passes for "mystical wisdom" is no big deal.
My exact words were a little longer:
"People claim all sorts of things.
Altered states of consciousness can be obtained by starvation and sense deprivation, too. It's very interesting stuff. Humans have the capacity to alter their brain states.
I get high from art and nature... altered state. Booze is also conducive to an altered state. So is rock climbing. There are "zones" we can get in.. not rocket science.. just being alive and focused on a task.
In other words, what these mystics are describing is to me .. NO BIG DEAL.
Focus is great. I'm focusing right now.. and I am NOT pretending to be a mystical guru. "
I equate mystical wisdom with being enthusiastic about getting stoned. To which I say "Big deal".
Monta wrote:
It is natural state of man as in the garden of Eden where God walked with Adam, or Jacob's ladder.
I have no idea what that means. It SOUNDS really nice though.. You claim to know "the natural state of man". Unfortunately, skeptics do NOT believe just anything someone writes, so you would have to PROVE that you know anything at all about the "natural state of man", or that it reflects what some story in an old book says.
Unless you can prove your statement TRUE in any way, I have no choice but to completely ignore it as MEANINGLESS.
Ohhh the "materialistic" card.
We wouldn't want to be THAT now.. would we?
Whatever your statement tries to say.. I have no idea.
Again, this is meaningless babble.
It's word salad, it's a deepity.
Again, you make claims.Monta wrote:
What can I say about God exactly?
He is in all time and all space apart from time and space?
Where did you get that info?
I'm skeptical.
Where did you learn that?
What is the source of your info?
I'm skeptical.
I remain skeptical.
You express opinions and beliefs.. but I don't see any FACTS.
By what method do you use to "learn" what you claim to know about God ?
Why would I believe that you "know" anything at all about any "God"?
Re: Is the Supernatural Natural?
Post #59[Replying to Blastcat]
"You have no reason to doubt that there is a human being who was 600 years old?
Really no reason at all?
Do you believe anything anyone writes in a book? "
I have no reason to doubt it and I have no need to make a judgment.
It was Monroe's experience as he dscribes it.
I am not going to call him a lier.
"You have no reason to doubt that there is a human being who was 600 years old?
Really no reason at all?
Do you believe anything anyone writes in a book? "
I have no reason to doubt it and I have no need to make a judgment.
It was Monroe's experience as he dscribes it.
I am not going to call him a lier.
Re: Is the Supernatural Natural?
Post #60[Replying to post 59 by Monta]
!
[center]Three reasons Monta is wrong.[/center]
1. Thinking that something is most likely true is making a judgement. Monta says that he isn't making one.
2. Just because something has been written down doesn't mean it's true.
3. It's not reasonable to accept an extraordinary claim before ruling out mundane explanations.
!
[center]Three reasons Monta is wrong.[/center]
1. Thinking that something is most likely true is making a judgement. Monta says that he isn't making one.
2. Just because something has been written down doesn't mean it's true.
3. It's not reasonable to accept an extraordinary claim before ruling out mundane explanations.
Do you believe everything that you read? If not, aren't you judging that Monroe is correct about people ( or a person ) living to be 600 years??
Does his description guarantee the age of the person he makes the claim about?
In your experience, is it more likely that people live to be 600 or that some people lie?
