Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[dakoski]

[Replying to marco]

I find this numerological play an absurdity. There are umpteen special numbers mentioned in the Bible and their arbitrary multiplication would allow more people into heaven. The idea that God has done this multiplication sum and arranges people in a final eventuality according to this arithmetic is silly.

Its just the style of the literature - its not meant to be taken literally in that manner.

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

from whence cometh the 144,000 is not someone I would want to meet or get close to. Nowadays he would be treated humanely instead of having himself published. He is obsessed with one tiny area of the globe, the one he knows at his time period. Prophet that he is he should have seen some Australians, with kangaroos as proof of identity, in his "vision." It is remiss of the Almighty to have allowed this book to be included in his other volumes of work and I shall tell him so, though one hopes not too soon.

Again this is just the nature of apocalyptic literature - its using figurative language.
E.g. Rev 7:9 makes this clear: 'After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. '

There is a sense throughout the Bible of the nation of Israel as not just ethnic Israel but representing the multi-ethnic people of God:e.g.
'I will record Rahab and Babylon among those who acknowledge me— Philistia too, and Tyre, along with Cush— and will say, ‘This one was born in Zion.’ Psalm 87:4

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 21 by dakoski]

People who scoff at the fact that JWs believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven fail to recognize that JWs believe that billions more will be living in PARADISE ON EARTH for all time. Why is there this insisting that more people should be going to heaven than what JWs say? This earth is where we were created to be, and God's plan hasn't changed!

(Isaiah 45:18; Matthew 5:5)

[Donray]

[Replying to post 21 by dakoski]

People who scoff at the fact that JWs believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven fail to recognize that JWs believe that billions more will be living in PARADISE ON EARTH for all time. Why is there this insisting that more people should be going to heaven than what JWs say? This earth is where we were created to be, and God's plan hasn't changed!

(Isaiah 45:18; Matthew 5:5)

Will you state that it does not matter if you are a JW or have the beliefs that JWs have in order to get to heaven or the heaven on earth?

You agree that that it does not matter if you are a JW, Mormon. Baptist, Catholic, etc. to get heaven or the billion heaven on earth. So, believing in what JWs believe is not necessary, ids that correct?

[JehovahsWitness]

Will you state that it does not matter if you are a JW or have the beliefs that JWs have in order to get to heaven or the heaven on earth?

You agree that that it does not matter if you are a JW, Mormon. Baptist, Catholic, etc. to get heaven or the billion heaven on earth. So, believing in what JWs believe is not necessary, ids that correct?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that it is God himself that decides who recieves eternal life or not. Many millions or even billons that will be resurrected to life on earth will not even have heard of Jesus much less the modern day organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses. They will of course have to learn God's standards and conform to his requirements but the opportunity will not be extended dependent on a person's beliefs but on God's mercy and justice.

The only thing the bible says regarding heavenly life is that it is only open to those that are "born again" (spirit anointed Christians). Many, such as the Apotstle Peter, Paul and first century Christians, (indeed the majority of born again Christians) became so long before the modern day organizaton of Jehovah's Witnesses existed. Even those born again spirit born Christians alive today have changed certain beliefs over the years as our organization is progressive in nature.

So eternal life is not dependent on one's beliefs but on God's judgement based on how one reacts to his revealed purpose at whatever time in history one finds oneself.

Will you state that it does not matter if you are a JW?

Of course not, it absolutely matters because God HAS an organization today and we believe God expects those that have the opportunity to be in it to joint it. Will that guarantee eternal life (or will not being one of Jehovah's Witnesses automatically mean that the individual is condemned) no. At the end of the day, God will judge every individual, regardless of their beliefs. Does it look good for them? No. Can we say catagorically they will be destroyed? No. What we can say catagorically is those that Jesus judges in the end as "goats" (rather than sheep) will be destroyed.

Helping Christ's brothers: The above scriptural reference is significant. Jesus said (in Matthew 25) that those that fail to help his (Jesus') "brothers" will be identified by him as goats and judged accordingly. Jehovah's Witnesses believe those "brothers" are all the spirit anointed Christians (with a heavenly calling) currently gathered into God's earthly organization (Jehovah's Witnesses). Those that have the opportunity to "help" such ones (support them principally by means of helping them preach the Good News) but fail risk being judged unfavorably. No human can say who will finally be judged as a "goat" or a "sheep" but that doesn't mean that ones reaction to Jehovah's Witnesses (as represented by the spirit anointed christians) is irrelevant.

[What] if you are a ... Mormon. Baptist, Catholic, etc.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe only one religious organization will survive the comming destruction of the system of things (Armageddon) and that is their own. This however does not mean that every member of any other religion will necessarly be destroyed. As I say, it's the difference between saying Wall Street (the financial institution) will be destroyed and everyone that works in wall street will destroyed... not the same thing. We will not necessarily reach every Mormon, Baptist or Catholic with the above message and they may be so out of what we see as ignorance of God's will for them today. Does it matter, of course it matters (we believe they are not part of God's organization and cannot enjoy the blessings of spiritual liberation, true brotherhood or the real hope for the future...).

Do we believe that present day Mormon's Baptists or Catholics are in God's organization? No we do not. Does this mean they are doomed to be destroyed at Armageddon? That we cannot say. God will judge them, our job is simple to preach the good news and leave the rest to Him.

So, believing in what JWs believe is not necessary, is that correct? It's necessary in the sense that it's the only way to know the truth as revealed so far to God's people ( through the channel by which He is educating today). Is it necessary to get yourself on the road to life (meaning to be living a life that conforms to God's will for people today from which one has the prospect of eternal life). It's necessary if one wants to belong to the only organization that will not be destroyed when Jesus returns to judge earths inhabitants.

Is it the only criteria for survival and will "believing what Jehovah's Witnesses believe" guarantee survival or not believing what Jehovah's Witnesses believe guarantee destruction? No.

CONCLUSION Jehovah's Witnesses believe each individual will be judged by Jesus as to everlasting life. That judgement will be made based on how individual's hearts reacted to God's will as revealed at any given moment in time. At this moment in man's history God is using only one religious organization to educated people for life in the new system to come.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 22 by onewithhim]

It's because people think heaven is the only good place to be.
Why would they think this?
Because the doctrine has been taught for centuries, by Christendom.

Have you ever sat and watched telivision, and during a program, they interrupt, and show this ad, like 10-15 times in one sitting.

How easy is it to get that out of your head?
It's like trying to take a bone from a dog.

To take a bone from a dog, we may have to give the dog something that looks like a bone, and has a similar flavor. So they sell chew toys that look like bones.

So is heaven a reward for being good, and earth the reward for being bad?
Or is it more a case of the earth is our home, and we get to live there, if we are good?
So if the earth is our home, why do people go to heaven?

[Donray]

Will you state that it does not matter if you are a JW or have the beliefs that JWs have in order to get to heaven or the heaven on earth?

You agree that that it does not matter if you are a JW, Mormon. Baptist, Catholic, etc. to get heaven or the billion heaven on earth. So, believing in what JWs believe is not necessary, ids that correct?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that it is God himself that decides who recieves eternal life or not. Many millions or even billons that will be resurrected to life on earth will not even have heard of Jesus much less the modern day organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses. They will of course have to learn God's standards and conform to his requirements but the opportunity will not be extended dependent on a person's beliefs but on God's mercy and justice.

The only thing the bible says regarding heavenly life is that it is only open to those that are "born again" (spirit anointed Christians). Many, such as the Apotstle Peter, Paul and first century Christians, (indeed the majority of born again Christians) became so long before the modern day organizaton of Jehovah's Witnesses existed. Even those born again spirit born Christians alive today have changed certain beliefs over the years as our organization is progressive in nature.

So eternal life is not dependent on one's beliefs but on God's judgement based on how one reacts to his revealed purpose at whatever time in history one finds oneself.

Will you state that it does not matter if you are a JW?

Personally I wouldn't go so far. It matters today because God HAS an organization today and we believe God expects those that have the opportunity to be in it to joint it. Will that guarantee eternal life (or will not being one of Jehovah's Witnesses automatically mean that the individual is condemned) no. At the end of the day, God will judge every individual, regardless of their beliefs. Does it look good for them? No. Can we say catagorically they will be destroyed? No. What we can say catagorically is those that Jesus judges in the end as "goats" (rather than sheep) will be destroyed.

Helping Christ's brothers: The above scriptural reference is significant. Jesus said (in Matthew 25) that those that fail to help his (Jesus') "brothers" will be identified by him as goats and judged accordingly. Jehovah's Witnesses believe those "brothers" are all the spirit anointed Christians (with a heavenly calling) currently gathered into God's earthly organization (Jehovah's Witnesses). Those that have the opportunity to "help" such ones (support them principally by means of helping them preach the Good News) but fail risk being judged unfavorably. No human can say who will finally be judged as a "goat" or a "sheep" but that doesn't mean that ones reaction to Jehovah's Witnesses (as represented by the spirit anointed christians) is irrelevant.

[What] if you are a ... Mormon. Baptist, Catholic, etc.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe only one religious organization will survive the comming destruction of the system of things (Armageddon) and that is their own. This however does not mean that every member of any other religion will necessarly be destroyed. As I say, it's the difference between saying Wall Street (the financial institution) will be destroyed and everyone that works in wall street will destroyed... not the same thing. We will not necessarily reach every Mormon, Baptist or Catholic with the above message and they may be so out of what we see as ignorance of God's will for them today. Does it matter, of course it matters (we believe they are not part of God's organization and cannot enjoy the blessings of spiritual liberation, true brotherhood or the real hope for the future...).

Do we believe that present day Mormon's Baptists or Catholics are in God's organization? No we do not. Does this mean they are doomed to be destroyed at Armageddon? That we cannot say. God will judge them, our job is simple to preach the good news and leave the rest to Him.

So, believing in what JWs believe is not necessary, is that correct? It's necessary in the sense that it's the only way to know the truth as revealed so far to God's people ( through the channel by which He is educating today). Is it necessary to get yourself on the road to life (meaning to be living a life that conforms to God's will for people today from which one has the prospect of eternal life). It's necessary if one wants to belong to the only organization that will not be destroyed when Jesus returns to judge earths inhabitants.

Is it the only criteria for survival and will "believing what Jehovah's Witnesses believe" guarantee survival or not believing what Jehovah's Witnesses believe guarantee destruction? No.

What you are saying is that JW is the true religion and that only those that believe like the JW only will get to your so called paradise on earth.

Bet you cannot even discuss what this heaven on earth would be like in a logical fashion.

What you are saying is all other religions except your is wrong.

[JehovahsWitness]

What you are saying is that JW is the true religion .

Yes that is correct

What you are saying is all other religions except your[s are] wrong.

Yes, that is our belief.

... and that only those that believe like the JW only will get to your so called paradise on earth.

That is incorrect... [details above in post # 24].

[JehovahsWitness]

Bet you cannot even discuss what this heaven on earth would be like in a logical fashion.

Well the bible doesn't give every detail about what life will be like in the new world. The bible explains how it will be governed, what standards those that live in it will have to keep and the general conditions in which people will live.

The bible description is quite wonderful, but it doesn't answer all conceivable questons about how life wll be organized; for many such questions as whether we will have cars or washing machines are minor when compared to the prospect of an end to war and violence, an end to world hunger, adequate housing and satisfying work for all, perfect health, harmony with the animals, and welcoming back into our arms those loved ones that we lost to death.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[marco]

Its just the style of the literature - its not meant to be taken literally in that manner.

Thanks for your patience with a sceptic. Yes, if it were all figurative poetry then one could pass by quietly. It is hard to believe that people build their lives around a figure of speech, however.

There is a sense throughout the Bible of the nation of Israel as not just ethnic Israel but representing the multi-ethnic people of God:e.g.
'I will record Rahab and Babylon among those who acknowledge me— Philistia too, and Tyre, along with Cush— and will say, ‘This one was born in Zion.’ Psalm 87:4

That sounds like misappropriation of someone else's private possession. The extensions, the exceptions, the special appeals, the willingness to favour one reading over another ..... and the clever interpretations of figurative writing, suggest playfulness rather than God's communication with humanity. Go well.

[marco]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that it is God himself that decides who recieves eternal life or not.

Fair enough. If there is a God he alone knows what he wants and of course it would be absurd for him to whisper to some passing tourists what his plans are. It would be very arrogant of those tourists to suppose they are very, very, very special just because of a lucky lottery ticket. There are no tickets - only hope stirred in with presumption.

Helping Christ's brothers: The above scriptural reference is significant. Jesus said (in Matthew 25) that those that fail to help his (Jesus') "brothers" will be identified by him as goats and judged accordingly. Jehovah's Witnesses believe those "brothers" are all the spirit anointed Christians

And therein lies the greatest error. If Jesus took the time to give the Parable of the Good Samaritan where he specifically said that those of similar beliefs are not necessarily one's neighbour or brother, then it is very wrong of people to believe that the Samaritan in real life should NOT be counted as a brother. Notice how you say "JWs believe..." but Jesus believes differently. It comes down to "I say so." And unfortunately the words of Christ are against that type of arrogance.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe only one religious organization will survive the comming destruction of the system of things ......

And finally the Judge will condemn those that have arrogated to themselves a place at the top table, pointing out the worthiness of many that they proudly ignored. And those that saw themselves as special and rejoiced in their favoured status will be placed at the lowest table.

I believe Christ indicated as much.