Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that it is God himself that decides who recieves eternal life or not.

Fair enough. If there is a God he alone knows what he wants and of course it would be absurd for him to whisper to some passing tourists what his plans are.

Not to "tourists" but the bible says he reveals His confidential matters ("secrets") to his Prophets, and their proclamations are in the bible for anyone to read.

JW

[dakoski]

[Replying to onewithhim]

People who scoff at the fact that JWs believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven fail to recognize that JWs believe that billions more will be living in PARADISE ON EARTH for all time. Why is there this insisting that more people should be going to heaven than what JWs say? This earth is where we were created to be, and God's plan hasn't changed!

(Isaiah 45:18; Matthew 5:5)

I partly agree with your response in the sense that we were created to be on the earth- and that Jehovah is bringing a new heaven and new earth as Revelation says.

The problem I have is that you're interpreting apocalyptic literature literally - in a way the author isn't intending (in terms of the 144,000). Yet you read historical narrative (e.g. Exodus 33:11) metaphorically - again in a way the author isn't intending. That seems to be getting it entirely back to front.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to onewithhim]

People who scoff at the fact that JWs believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven fail to recognize that JWs believe that billions more will be living in PARADISE ON EARTH for all time. Why is there this insisting that more people should be going to heaven than what JWs say? This earth is where we were created to be, and God's plan hasn't changed!

(Isaiah 45:18; Matthew 5:5)

I partly agree with your response in the sense that we were created to be on the earth- and that Jehovah is bringing a new heaven and new earth as Revelation says.

The problem I have is that you're interpreting apocalyptic literature literally - in a way the author isn't intending (in terms of the 144,000).

Well let's follow what you've just said throught to its logical conclusion.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you agree there will be people that "some" people will spend eternity in heaven and others will spend eternity on earth. Even if 144,000 IS a "symbolic" number it is a tiny, TINY number in comparison to all the people that have ever lived, so even if its symbolic its symbolic of a "small percentage"/ a "minority" a "tiny fraction". So at best the writer intended to communicate if there are two groups, the heavenly group is much MUCH smaller than the other.

No?

And again, Revelation speaks of "selecting" a small number from each tribe of Israel, so again, symbolizing take a small number from an already elect group (the nation of Israel). So even if we do say "Okay the intention was to symbolize something else, not to settle on a specific (literal) amount, the symbolism still indicates essentially the same thing, a small select number in heaven.

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Rev 21:1-3 (NIV)

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,�[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

I don't see the divide you have between heaven and earth here - the dwelling of God is with people on the earth. The barrier to heaven and earth is torn away in the new heaven and new earth. That's the meaning of the curtain in the Holy of Holies being torn when Jesus dies on the cross - its a picture of what happens when Jesus returns. Hebrews 8:5 shows that the tabernacle is a model of heaven (holy of holies and the presence of God) and earth.

I agree partly that the 144,000 is making the point that broad is the road to destruction but narrow is the path to salvation.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 34 by dakoski]

I don't see the divide you have between heaven and earth here

Did you yourself not just make a distinction? You said...

I partly agree with your response in the sense that we were created to be on the earth- and that Jehovah is bringing a new heaven and new earth as Revelation says.

From what I can see you mentioned two distinct things above (#1 New Heavens ... and something different which you identified under a different name as #2 New Earth)

I agree partly that the 144,000 is making the point that broad is the road to destruction but narrow is the path to salvation.

I'm not following you here? Are you suggesting that the 144,000 is symbolic of the (relatively) small number of people that will be offered eternal life? All of which will be in heaven (the number is spoken of as "taken from the earth").

So where does the "new earth" come in?

[dakoski]

Its just the style of the literature - its not meant to be taken literally in that manner.

Thanks for your patience with a sceptic. Yes, if it were all figurative poetry then one could pass by quietly. It is hard to believe that people build their lives around a figure of speech, however.

There is a sense throughout the Bible of the nation of Israel as not just ethnic Israel but representing the multi-ethnic people of God:e.g.
'I will record Rahab and Babylon among those who acknowledge me— Philistia too, and Tyre, along with Cush— and will say, ‘This one was born in Zion.’ Psalm 87:4

That sounds like misappropriation of someone else's private possession. The extensions, the exceptions, the special appeals, the willingness to favour one reading over another ..... and the clever interpretations of figurative writing, suggest playfulness rather than God's communication with humanity. Go well.

Yeah I can understand it looks like that from the perspective of a sceptic. I agree there is a fair amoung of playfulness and word play in Scripture. For me, its trying to discern the genre of the literature when interpreting it. What ever literature we read we'll take into account if its poetry, apocalyptic, parables, narrative, wisdom literature when interpreting the authors intention.

Revelation seems bizarre until we understand much of the imagery being used is taken from Ezekiel, Daniel and other apocalyptic passages in the Hebrew Scriptures - which help to understand their meaning.

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 34 by dakoski]

I don't see the divide you have between heaven and earth here

Did you yourself not just make a distinction? You said...

I partly agree with your response in the sense that we were created to be on the earth- and that Jehovah is bringing a new heaven and new earth as Revelation says.

From what I can see you mentioned two distinct things above (#1 New Heavens ... and something different which you identified under a different name as #2 New Earth)

I agree partly that the 144,000 is making the point that broad is the road to destruction but narrow is the path to salvation.

I'm not following you here? Are you suggesting that the 144,000 is symbolic of the (relatively) small number of people that will be offered eternal life? All of which will be in heaven (the number is spoken of as "taken from the earth").

So where does the "new earth" come in?

Rev 20:1-3 seems to say to me that the heavens come down to the earth. So that the dwelling with man is with God.

The distinction between heaven and earth is our current experience - but this barrier will be destroyed. Sin separates the presence of man with God - that's the point of Jehovah walking with man in the garden before Adam sins. The intention has always been for Jehovah to dwell with people on the earth. Jesus death destroys the barrier between Jehovah and humanity. There is no distinction made in Scripture between elite belivers who have special access to God and other believers who do not - a kind of business class vs economy class option.

[JehovahsWitness]

The distinction between heaven and earth is our current experience

So when Peter wrote there will be (future) a new heavens and a new earth, he was speaking about "our current experience" and not a future promise? Is that what you are saying?



Do Peters words not indicate a future benefitial promise rather than a current negative reality? Why did Peter say believers are "looking forward to" it if the New Heavens and Earth are in fact our "current (present) experience"?

The intention has always been for Jehovah to dwell with people on the earth.

Okay, so why are 144,000 (or a small select number of people) being taken to heaven?

I partly agree [...] that Jehovah is bringing a new heaven and new earth as Revelation says.

And why did YOU say "Jehovah is bringing..." this new heaven and earth if its a present (negative/undesirable) reality?

And why are they called "New" if they are the result of the ages old fall into sin and separation from God?


JW

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

You're not understanding what I'm saying- whether that's because you're not reading it properly or I'm not being clear I'm unsure. It maybe because my kids are running around and wanting me to play with them. I'll try and reply probably in the evening when its a little quieter here and try and clarify.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

You're not understanding what I'm saying- whether that's because you're not reading it properly or I'm not being clear I'm unsure. It maybe because my kids are running around and wanting me to play with them. I'll try and reply probably in the evening when its a little quieter here and try and clarify.

Okay no problem. It's probably me that got the wrong end of the stick. You can just address my post above when you have time.

Thanks,

JW