Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[Blastcat]

Aren't there more JWs than that?

So what happens.. the rest of you go to hell?

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in "hell".

Regarding your question, please refer to

- post 8 by JehovahsWitness

- post 9 by 2timothy316

Does your belief or non belief in something good make it true?

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Ok I have time for a brief reply. We were talking past each other so its good to try to see where we agree and where we differ rather than assuming we know what the other's position is.

1) I agree with you that the new heavens and the new earth are future.

2) Distinction between heavens and earth:

Present: We agree (I imagine) that heaven is where God resides now. We are now on earth and may not come into his presence.

Future:

[This is my understanding of what you were communicating - it may be completely wrong so please clarify if I'm wrong]:

From what you've said the present separation from the presence of God will remain the case for the vast majority of believers despite Jesus death on the cross. Only the 144,000 may come into the presence of God in heaven? The rest of believers will enjoy the new earth but not the new heavens?

My response to this is:

a) What exactly is Jesus death achieving? My view is that the cross enables us to come into the presence of God because of Jesus righteousness - which our sin prevented us from doing. Salvation for me is to be in the presence of God for eternity - we have a taste of it now but will experience the fulfilment when Jesus returns.

This doesn't seem to be your view - as most will still not come into the presence of God. Salvation is not to know God and be in his presence - rather its that you will have a more pleasant earthly life than this current existence. This doesn't reflect the vast majority of the New Testament so for me is unlikely to be a correct interpretation of Revelation.

b) There's no evidence that I can see from Scripture that suggests only an elite tiny proportion of all believers can go to heaven and be in the presence of God. I see the exact opposite:

e.g.
'You are all, in fact, sons of God+ through your faith in Christ Jesus.+ 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.+ 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek,+ there is neither slave nor freeman,+ there is neither male nor female,+ for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus.+ 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring,*+ heirs+ with reference to a promise.' Galatians 3:26-29 (NWT)

This says that we are all heirs of the promise of Abraham - is Abraham one of the 144,000?

b) Rev 21:1-4 speaks of the new heaven coming down to the new earth. The New Jerusalem here described is it heaven or earth for you? It seems to me both - the presence of God has come down to earth. I don't see this saying its only a small selection of believers experiencing this.

'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth;+ for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away,+ and the sea+ is no more. 2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God+ and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.+ 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.+ 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes,+ and death will be no more,+ neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.+ The former things have passed away.�'(NWT)

3) I think your other question was about the 144,000.

For clarity, again I think this represents all believers: 12 in revelation and throughout the Bible is the number for the church (e.g. 12 apostles and 12 tribes of Israel; in Revelation 12 the woman with 12 stars around her head again represents the church).

In addition, this is clearly talking about events before Christ's return. I think heaven is where all believers reside. Is your view that only a subset of the dead reside in heaven and the rest somewhere else before the resurrection? What passages support that position?


Sorry won't have time to reply before the evening but hope clarifies a little.

[JehovahsWitness]

[This is my understanding of what you were communicating - it may be completely wrong so please clarify if I'm wrong]:

From what you've said the present separation from the presence of God will remain the case for the vast majority of believers despite Jesus death on the cross. Only the 144,000 may come into the presence of God in heaven? The rest of believers will enjoy the new earth but not the new heavens?

Absolutely not.

We are not separated from God by location we are separated from God, as you yourself suggsted earlier, by sin. Even though Adam lived physically on the earth as a human and God resided in heaven (the spirit abode) with other spirits (also called "angels") in the beginning as the human son of God they were not "separated". Sure Adam didn't see God but the bible account indicates they literally spoke with each other, and there was a unity between them as they existed in a loving relationship.

I think maybe you are thinkng that for God to "reside" with humans once more God must leave heaven and the Angels and descend (maybe taking on a human body - correct me if I'm wrong) and live on this our planet earth. Thus taking revelation's promise literally. However God can be with us by removing the barrior of sin. We humans can once again live like Adam in the beginning (sure still on the earth) but united in constant communication and in perfect harmony with our Creator ... all the while he keeps his literal abode in the spirit world and we keep our original home on earth.

Was Adam in "the presence of God" when they discussed his naming the animals. When God explained who He was and what his purpose for him was, was he in the "presence of God"? Maybe Adam wasn't in heaven looking at God literally but I get the feeling you are suggesting "seeing God" is being united with him. But doesn't the bible report that Satan the Devil literally entered into Gods presence presumably seeing him literally yet could two individuals be more "separated"?

My point is that humans can be in God's presence all the while living on the earth. If the separation of sin is removed they can enjoy a full and wonderful relationships with God as his sons and daughters as Adam and Eve did before the fall and be in his "presence" in the real sense of the world, know him, converse with him, be united with him. All the while honouring his original purpose for humans, namely living on the planet earth he created FOR them.



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Salvation is not to know God and be in his presence - rather its that you will have a more pleasant earthly life than this current existence. This doesn't reflect the vast majority of the New Testament so for me is unlikely to be a correct interpretation of Revelation.

First of all, as I explained above, salvation IS to know God and be in his presence. This is totally possibly while literally living on the earth.


a more pleasant earthly life than this current existence. This doesn't reflect the vast majority of the New Testament


Rev 21:1-4 : 'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away [...] And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.�' - NWT

Isaiah 11: 9
There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for THE EARTH shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea." -- New American Bible

Ecclesiastes 1: 4
"One generation goes and another comes; but THE EARTH is forever*."

Proverbs 2 v 21, 22 Douay-Rheims Bible
"For they that are upright shall dwell in THE EARTH, and the simple shall continue in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. -- King James Bible

Matthew 5: 5 American Standard Version
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit THE EARTH."

Matthew 6 v 10 Young's Literal Translationn "Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on THE EARTH."

Psalms 115:16 "The heavens belong to the LORD, but he has given THE EARTH to all humanity." New Living Translation (©2007)

PSALMS 72v8
May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of THE EARTH. New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Psalms 37:29 "The righteous themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will reside forever upon it."

Psalms 37:11:
"But the meek ones themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

So the question remains, WHAT is this "new earth"?

And why does the bible speak about a "new heavens" AND a new earth existing simultaneously, if it is simply speaking about God leaving his spirit home and coming to live on this little tiny planet. (presumably leaving the angels up in heaven to watch over the whole arrangement).

And why does revelation speak of taking humans UP to heaven from the earth when God will be descending to live on the earth. Wouldn't that mean that those (whatever their number) that went TO heaven cannot reside forever with him in heaven because he (God) has subsequently moved down to the earth? And if heaven is "I think heaven is where all believers reside." why can't they reside on this planet earth and be in your definition of heaven?

All questions that demand an answer to have a clear picture of things, don't you think?

JW

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]


[center]
Surely you have a reason?[/center]

What you are saying is that JW is the true religion .

Yes that is correct

Why do you think that?

What you are saying is all other religions except your[s are] wrong.

Yes, that is our belief.

Why do you think that?

[marco]

Not to "tourists" but the bible says he reveals His confidential matters ("secrets") to his Prophets, and their proclamations are in the bible for anyone to read.

For anyone to read, perhaps, but not for just anyone to interpret correctly. Many try but few get the right answer, it seems. That would echo the claim that many are called but few chosen. Oh, well, better to reign in hell than serve in heaven, I suppose.

[marco]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you agree there will be people that "some" people will spend eternity in heaven and others will spend eternity on earth.

Astronomers would disagree that people will spend an eternity on Earth. The sun will eventually die, as suns do. The good people living their lives on Earth will require to be rehoused.

Yes, I know - God has taken care of the architecture. As always.

[marco]

Yeah I can understand it looks like that from the perspective of a sceptic. I agree there is a fair amoung of playfulness and word play in Scripture. For me, its trying to discern the genre of the literature when interpreting it. What ever literature we read we'll take into account if its poetry, apocalyptic, parables, narrative, wisdom literature when interpreting the authors intention.

I can appreciate a variety of styles and literary genres. I do not expect to find Dostoyevsky in Gide or Keats in Tennyson. The Bible, however, has I would think a duty to convey its message with clarity - if the message is important. One may conclude that Revelation is not such an important message since there are many interpretations, some worryingly nasty and menacing, and an appalling dearth of clarity.

It is all very well to say that we can find some meaning in Revelation when we cross-reference Daniel or others, but often the original is depressingly opaque. This allows many groups to claim Truth for themselves, and set themselves (as JWs seem to do) on a pedestal, like Simeon Stylites. Go well.

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Absolutely not.

We are not separated from God by location we are separated from God, as you yourself suggsted earlier, by sin. Even though Adam lived physically on the earth as a human and God resided in heaven (the spirit abode) with other spirits (also called "angels") in the beginning as the human son of God they were not "separated". Sure Adam didn't see God but the bible account indicates they literally spoke with each other, and there was a unity between them as they existed in a loving relationship.

I think maybe you are thinkng that for God to "reside" with humans once more God must leave heaven and the Angels and descend (maybe taking on a human body - correct me if I'm wrong) and live on this our planet earth. Thus taking revelation's promise literally. However God can be with us by removing the barrior of sin. We humans can once again live like Adam in the beginning (sure still on the earth) but united in constant communication and in perfect harmony with our Creator ... all the while he keeps his literal abode in the spirit world and we keep our original home on earth.

Was Adam in "the presence of God" when they discussed his naming the animals. When God explained who He was and what his purpose for him was, was he in the "presence of God"? Maybe Adam wasn't in heaven looking at God literally but I get the feeling you are suggesting "seeing God" is being united with him. But doesn't the bible report that Satan the Devil literally entered into Gods presence presumably seeing him literally yet could two individuals be more "separated"?

My point is that humans can be in God's presence all the while living on the earth. If the separation of sin is removed they can enjoy a full and wonderful relationships with God as his sons and daughters as Adam and Eve did before the fall and be in his "presence" in the real sense of the world, know him, converse with him, be united with him. All the while honouring his original purpose for humans, namely living on the planet earth he created FOR them.

Thanks this is helpful for clarification. Two points in response:

1) I agree its really about what was the relationship between humans and Jehovah before the fall. This is key to i)our understanding of who Jehovah is ii) the effects of sin on our relationship with him and iii) what are the effects of redemption from sin and the hope of new heavens and new earth.

Your view seems to be that humans can not nor ever will physically meet with Jehovah. He is in heaven we are on earth and never the twain shall meet - that's not to say we can't know things about him or know him in some ineffable sense. But there's a barrier between us and Jehovah -even before we sinned - that prevents us from being in his presence in a literal sense but we can experience his presence in a metaphorical sense.

The difficulties with this are:
a) i) What's the mechanism that enables the 144,000 to be in the presence of Jehovah in heaven?

Its not Jesus death - as us non-144,000ers who believe in Jesus' death for us only get to be in the new earth but not to be in the presence of Jehovah in heaven? Do you have any other verses consistent with this teaching outside of Revelation? A more obvious interpretation is that this is apocalyptic literature, the number 144,000 isn't the main point of the passages where they are mentioned, so actually if your interpretation contradicts the rest of Scripture its probably wrong.

ii) are the 144,000 physically resurrected when Jesus returns like the rest or not?

b) Genesis 3 gives many reasons to think Adam and Eve were physically in the presence of Jehovah before they sinned.

v8:'Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden.' (NWT)

Even after the fall there are many verses that speak of people like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Hagar and others speaking and interacting with Jehovah face to face. I've discussed in detail Exodus 33:11-22 in the other thread but there are many other passages.

I understand you will say whenever the Bible says humans are in the presence of Jehovah (the Bible says it a great deal throughout Scripture) it doesn't really mean that - it seems you're operating from a prior presupposition about what Jehovah is like that cannot be influenced by the Bible (as any passage that contradicts the presupposition is dismissed as metaphor).

[JehovahsWitness]

1) I agree its really about what was the relationship between humans and Jehovah before the fall.

Absolutely! Before adam sinned there was no barrier between him and his heavenly father. If we insist that "not seeing God" is a barrior, would that mean that Satan and the Demons that have literally seen God had a better relationship with God than say Moses or Abraham described as God's "friend"? Those were two imperfect men but the bible said they "saw" God with eyes of faith, imagine those same men alive on earth without the only REAL barrior, sin!

Did God create his "son" Adam with "a barrior"? No, the fact that humans will be in a different location, but constantly connected to God able to speak to him like you may speak to your child and hear his voice reply... means that he will be with humans in the way he intended. When Jesus was on earth, there was no barrior between him and God just because he couldn't literally see him. Jesus was in God's presence as a human and so will perfect mankind be.


Your view seems to be that humans can not nor ever will physically meet with Jehovah.

EXODUS 33: 20
You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

He is in heaven we are on earth and never the twain shall meet

You don't have to see someone to "meet" them. You don't have to see someone to be with them. You don't have to see someone to have a relationship with them. God can meet, guide, communicate, interact and love someone without leaving heaven. Did Adam never meet his father because he never "saw" him physically? Could it be (forgive me I don't want to offend) that you are putting too much emphasis on the physical and not enough on the spiritual, intellectual, emotioinal connection man was destined to have with his Creator?

Can you imagine Adam saying to God: "It's all very well talking to you every day, my getting to know you, working with you, you guiding me, and us loving each other as we do... BUT I WANT TO COME UP THERE AND SEE WHAT COLOUR HAIR YOU HAVE!!" I'm painting a caracature and I'm not saying gazing literally at the face of the creator would not be an amazing awe inspiring experience, but would be all it is, gazing at his face. Isn't a relationship more than that?