Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[JehovahsWitness]

The difficulties with this are:
a) i) What's the mechanism that enables the 144,000 to be in the presence of Jehovah in heaven?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking how some get to go to heaven and others don't?

are the 144,000 physically resurrected when Jesus returns like the rest or not?

I don't understand who "the rest" you are refering to are. Those individuals that have the privilege of going to heaven have to die before they can go to heaven. Paul explains in 1 Cor 15:50 that "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable".

So they are not "physically resurrected" at all. They die and their physical bodies return to dust and as Paul explains they are resurrected with "spiritual bodies" verse 44 of the same chapter states "it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." Those given these spiritual bodies after death are resurrected in heaven.

When does this resurrection take place?

The bible indicates this ressurrection takes place when Christ takes up Kingdom Power.

1 THESSALONIANS 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

REVELATION 20:5, 6
And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

[dakoski]

Salvation is not to know God and be in his presence - rather its that you will have a more pleasant earthly life than this current existence. This doesn't reflect the vast majority of the New Testament so for me is unlikely to be a correct interpretation of Revelation.

First of all, as I explained above, salvation IS to know God and be in his presence. This is totally possibly while literally living on the earth.


a more pleasant earthly life than this current existence. This doesn't reflect the vast majority of the New Testament


Rev 21:1-4 : 'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away [...] And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.�' - NWT

Isaiah 11: 9
There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for THE EARTH shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea." -- New American Bible

Ecclesiastes 1: 4
"One generation goes and another comes; but THE EARTH is forever*."

Proverbs 2 v 21, 22 Douay-Rheims Bible
"For they that are upright shall dwell in THE EARTH, and the simple shall continue in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. -- King James Bible

Matthew 5: 5 American Standard Version
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit THE EARTH."

Matthew 6 v 10 Young's Literal Translationn "Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on THE EARTH."

Psalms 115:16 "The heavens belong to the LORD, but he has given THE EARTH to all humanity." New Living Translation (©2007)

PSALMS 72v8
May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of THE EARTH. New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Psalms 37:29 "The righteous themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will reside forever upon it."

Psalms 37:11:
"But the meek ones themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

So the question remains, WHAT is this "new earth"?

And why does the bible speak about a "new heavens" AND a new earth existing simultaneously, if it is simply speaking about God leaving his spirit home and coming to live on this little tiny planet. (presumably leaving the angels up in heaven to watch over the whole arrangement).

And why does revelation speak of taking humans UP to heaven from the earth when God will be descending to live on the earth. Wouldn't that mean that those (whatever their number) that went TO heaven cannot reside forever with him in heaven because he (God) has subsequently moved down to the earth? And if heaven is "I think heaven is where all believers reside." why can't they reside on this planet earth and be in your definition of heaven?

All questions that demand an answer to have a clear picture of things, don't you think?

JW

As I said before I agree with you that the gospel hope is a new heaven and a new earth. So yes I wholeheartedly agree with the Scriptures you quoted and they are consistent with the position I've been taking.

My point was that it is inconsistent with both the New and Old Testament to say that Jehovah will not be physically present there on the new earth - none of those Scriptures you quoted provide evidence for that view.

So the question remains, WHAT is this "new earth"?

And why does the bible speak about a "new heavens" AND a new earth existing simultaneously, if it is simply speaking about God leaving his spirit home and coming to live on this little tiny planet. (presumably leaving the angels up in heaven to watch over the whole arrangement).

I think that is answered in Rev 21:1-3 that I've quoted a number of times. Its seems pretty self-explanatory to me - not can it be an issue of translation as I'm using your NWT.

also verses 22-23 are clear
'I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah* God the Almighty+ is its temple, also the Lamb is. 23 And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God illuminated it,+ and its lamp was the Lamb.' (NWT)

The holy of holies in the temple of course is a picture of heaven - that we humans cannot be physically in the presence of Jehovah and live. We know this is literal as some actually died who did come into his presence. This is saying there is no curtain blocking us from being in the physical presence of Jehovah.

Ultimately I think you're having difficulty accepting what the passage says - I'm happy to take it on face value. I find it strange that you interpret literally 144,000 will go to heaven (when that's not the main point of either passage that mentions the 144,000). But you won't interpret Rev 21:1-3 as Jehovah literally living with his people when that's precisely the main point of the passage - and is in fact the heart of the message of redemption taught in the Bible. I agree Rev 21 is highly metaphorical but that doesn't give us free reign to interpret it whatever way we want. We have to ask what is it the point it is teaching? I think its very clear that Jehovah is coming to live with his people.

And why does revelation speak of taking humans UP to heaven from the earth when God will be descending to live on the earth. Wouldn't that mean that those (whatever their number) that went TO heaven cannot reside forever with him in heaven because he (God) has subsequently moved down to the earth? And if heaven is "I think heaven is where all believers reside." why can't they reside on this planet earth and be in your definition of heaven?

All questions that demand an answer to have a clear picture of things, don't you think?

Whenever a believer dies they are taken up to heaven - in the same way that the thief on the cross was with Jesus in paradise.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 answer your query:
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Those believers who have died will descend with Jesus to be with us in the new heavens and new earth.

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 51 by JehovahsWitness]

Yeah that's correct - and how is it that they can be in the presence of Jehovah whereas the vast majority of believers cannot?

[dakoski]

1) I agree its really about what was the relationship between humans and Jehovah before the fall.

Absolutely! Before adam sinned there was no barrier between him and his heavenly father. If we insist that "not seeing God" is a barrior, would that mean that Satan and the Demons that have literally seen God had a better relationship with God than say Moses or Abraham described as God's "friend"? Those were two imperfect men but the bible said they "saw" God with eyes of faith, imagine those same men alive on earth without the only REAL barrior, sin!

Did God create his "son" Adam with "a barrior"? No, the fact that humans will be in a different location, but constantly connected to God able to speak to him like you may speak to your child and hear his voice reply... means that he will be with humans in the way he intended. When Jesus was on earth, there was no barrior between him and God just because he couldn't literally see him. Jesus was in God's presence as a human and so will perfect mankind be.


Your view seems to be that humans can not nor ever will physically meet with Jehovah.

EXODUS 33: 20
You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

He is in heaven we are on earth and never the twain shall meet

You don't have to see someone to "meet" them. You don't have to see someone to be with them. You don't have to see someone to have a relationship with them. God can meet, guide, communicate, interact and love someone without leaving heaven. Did Adam never meet his father because he never "saw" him physically? Could it be (forgive me I don't want to offend) that you are putting too much emphasis on the physical and not enough on the spiritual, intellectual, emotioinal connection man was destined to have with his Creator?

Can you imagine Adam saying to God: "It's all very well talking to you every day, my getting to know you, working with you, you guiding me, and us loving each other as we do... BUT I WANT TO COME UP THERE AND SEE WHAT COLOUR HAIR YOU HAVE!!" I'm painting a caracature and I'm not saying gazing literally at the face of the creator would not be an amazing awe inspiring experience, but would be all it is, gazing at his face. Isn't a relationship more than that?

The problem with quoting Exodus 33:20 is that it makes my case all the better as I point you to Exodus 33:11
'Jehovah spoke to Moses face-to-face,+ just as one man would speak to another man. ' (NWT)

The context is that Moses speaks face to face with Jehovah regularly (v11) - and that he makes known another person who is also Jehovah (v20) who no one may see and live.

This is the pattern of revelation throughout the New and Old Testament (e.g. John 1:18). The new heaven and new earth is when we may finally see the Father who no sinner may see and live yet is made known by the seen Jehovah who speaks with Moses and others face to face.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Absolutely not.

We are not separated from God by location we are separated from God, as you yourself suggsted earlier, by sin. Even though Adam lived physically on the earth as a human and God resided in heaven (the spirit abode) with other spirits (also called "angels") in the beginning as the human son of God they were not "separated". Sure Adam didn't see God but the bible account indicates they literally spoke with each other, and there was a unity between them as they existed in a loving relationship.

I think maybe you are thinkng that for God to "reside" with humans once more God must leave heaven and the Angels and descend (maybe taking on a human body - correct me if I'm wrong) and live on this our planet earth. Thus taking revelation's promise literally. However God can be with us by removing the barrior of sin. We humans can once again live like Adam in the beginning (sure still on the earth) but united in constant communication and in perfect harmony with our Creator ... all the while he keeps his literal abode in the spirit world and we keep our original home on earth.

Was Adam in "the presence of God" when they discussed his naming the animals. When God explained who He was and what his purpose for him was, was he in the "presence of God"? Maybe Adam wasn't in heaven looking at God literally but I get the feeling you are suggesting "seeing God" is being united with him. But doesn't the bible report that Satan the Devil literally entered into Gods presence presumably seeing him literally yet could two individuals be more "separated"?

My point is that humans can be in God's presence all the while living on the earth. If the separation of sin is removed they can enjoy a full and wonderful relationships with God as his sons and daughters as Adam and Eve did before the fall and be in his "presence" in the real sense of the world, know him, converse with him, be united with him. All the while honouring his original purpose for humans, namely living on the planet earth he created FOR them.

Thanks this is helpful for clarification. Two points in response:

1) I agree its really about what was the relationship between humans and Jehovah before the fall. This is key to i)our understanding of who Jehovah is ii) the effects of sin on our relationship with him and iii) what are the effects of redemption from sin and the hope of new heavens and new earth.

Your view seems to be that humans can not nor ever will physically meet with Jehovah. He is in heaven we are on earth and never the twain shall meet - that's not to say we can't know things about him or know him in some ineffable sense. But there's a barrier between us and Jehovah -even before we sinned - that prevents us from being in his presence in a literal sense but we can experience his presence in a metaphorical sense.

The difficulties with this are:
a) i) What's the mechanism that enables the 144,000 to be in the presence of Jehovah in heaven?

Its not Jesus death - as us non-144,000ers who believe in Jesus' death for us only get to be in the new earth but not to be in the presence of Jehovah in heaven? Do you have any other verses consistent with this teaching outside of Revelation? A more obvious interpretation is that this is apocalyptic literature, the number 144,000 isn't the main point of the passages where they are mentioned, so actually if your interpretation contradicts the rest of Scripture its probably wrong.

ii) are the 144,000 physically resurrected when Jesus returns like the rest or not?

b) Genesis 3 gives many reasons to think Adam and Eve were physically in the presence of Jehovah before they sinned.

v8:'Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden.' (NWT)

Even after the fall there are many verses that speak of people like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Hagar and others speaking and interacting with Jehovah face to face. I've discussed in detail Exodus 33:11-22 in the other thread but there are many other passages.

I understand you will say whenever the Bible says humans are in the presence of Jehovah (the Bible says it a great deal throughout Scripture) it doesn't really mean that - it seems you're operating from a prior presupposition about what Jehovah is like that cannot be influenced by the Bible (as any passage that contradicts the presupposition is dismissed as metaphor).

dakoski.....Your first paragraph in your #1 point is right on the money.

Your thought about us not being able to be literally in Jehovah's presence is confusing to me. How can we literally be standing right next to the sun? We actually wouldn't make it beyond a half a million miles away from the earth. (And the sun is 93 million miles away.) And you think we could ever be in the actual presence of the One who MADE the sun?

We can be "in his presence" as Jehovah'sWitness explained, and I don't think it could be any more succinct, or any more correct. The 144,000 can be, eventually, with Jehovah in heaven because they are CHANGED, as Paul tells us, e.g., in his letter to the Corinthians:

"There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another....So also is the [first] resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body [flesh], it is raised an imperishable body [spirit]....Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God [in heaven]....We will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be changed." (I Corinthians 15:40,42,50,51, New American Standard Bible)


I don't see where what JW said about the 144,000 is at all wrong. That viewpoint harmonizes with all Scripture.

No, the 144,000 are not physically resurrected, as Paul brought out in his Corinthians letter that I quoted from above.

To say that "humans cannot be in the literal presence of Jehovah" is to harmonize with all other Scripture. This has been explained over and over, to the eventual dismay of the explainer (because there is no hearing ear). Old Testament passages do indeed speak of humans being in Jehovah's presence, or, that Jehovah "came down" and/or "resided" with humans. How can that be literally true, when there is no account of His actual Being residing on the earth? In fact, wouldn't the earth be a burnt-out cinder if He came here?

Jehovah told the Israelites that if they obeyed him, he would "dwell among the sons of Israel and will be their God. They shall know that I am the LORD their God who brought them out of the land of Egypt, that I might dwell among them." (Exodus 29:45,46, NASB) Hello? Did He mean literally? I don't think so!

[dakoski]

The difficulties with this are:
a) i) What's the mechanism that enables the 144,000 to be in the presence of Jehovah in heaven?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking how some get to go to heaven and others don't?

are the 144,000 physically resurrected when Jesus returns like the rest or not?

I don't understand who "the rest" you are refering to are. Those individuals that have the privilege of going to heaven have to die first. Paul explains in 1 Cor 15:50 that "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable".

So they are not "physically resurrected" at all. They die and their physical bodies return to dust and as Paul explains they are resurrected with "spiritual bodies" verse 44 of the same chapter states "it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." Those given these spiritual bodies after death are resurrected in heaven.

JW

If only the 144,000 get to heaven - what is the criteria by which it is judged that some who believe the gospel go to heaven but others who also believe the gospel go to the new earth instead. Was the promise to Abraham of the heaven or the new earth? Who are those who share in Abraham's inheritance only those who went to heaven or those who went to the new earth.

Jesus speaks only of the sheeps and goats - you are suggesting there is actually three categories of judgement.

Similarly in Galatians 3 I quoted earlier all believers are inheritors of Abraham's promise.

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 55 by onewithhim]

Hi onewithhim

Yeah I agree we have fundamentally different understandings of what Scripture teaches about Jehovah. I'm willing to be shown I'm interpreting the passages like Exodus 33:11-22 and Rev 21:1-3 incorrectly - but what I seem to get instead is that such passages contradict your presuppositions about Jehovah so need to be reinterpreted to fit those presuppositions. If that's the case then it seems those presuppositions appear to have more weight than Scripture as they overrule passages that conflict with these assumptions.

Yeah I like JW's comments they are courteous and well thought out. I also agree with many of your responses on issues other than where we obviously disagree.

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 55 by onewithhim]

I don't see where what JW said about the 144,000 is at all wrong. That viewpoint harmonizes with all Scripture.

Just to pick up on this point - could you show me 1) which Scriptures teach that some believers will go to heaven and stay there for all eternity whilst other believers will instead stay for eternity on the new earth -I'm not aware of any. 2) what criteria Jehovah uses to distinguish these two groups of believers.

[JehovahsWitness]

The holy of holies in the temple of course is a picture of heaven - that we humans cannot be physically in the presence of Jehovah and live. We know this is literal as some actually died who did come into his presence.

- If we humans cannot be in God's presence and live, will all the humans die when God arrives on the earth?

Whenever a believer dies they are taken up to heaven [...] Those believers who have died will descend with Jesus to be with us in the new heavens and new earth.

By "us" do you mean the faithful humans living in physical bodies on the earth? If so, won't seeing God kill us?

So the people that have died. They go up to heaven but they subsequently come down again. Jesus comes down to earth (to live on earth?) Jehovah comes down to live on earth. (It is not clear from what you said if God (and Jesus) will take on human bodies to relocate to spend eternity the earth) And this situaton of everyone living on earth is called ... "the new heavens "?

The angels will spend eternity out of God's presence since I presume they will remain in heaven when God relocates to live eternally on earth.

Does this about sum up what you believe?


JW

[dakoski]

The holy of holies in the temple of course is a picture of heaven - that we humans cannot be physically in the presence of Jehovah and live. We know this is literal as some actually died who did come into his presence.

- If we humans cannot be in God's presence and live, will all the humans die when God arrives on the earth?

- I'm still not clear what you understand by "the new heavens" to be.

- I'm still not clear if you believe people will die and go to heaven.

- Will the angels spend eternity out of God's presence since I presume they will remain in heaven when God relocates to live eternally on earth?


JW

Point 1) That is the whole point of redemption that we can approach the Father in the righteousness of Christ when he returns otherwise in our own righteousness yes we would all die.
Revelation 21:1-3 makes that clear.

Point 2) 'What are the new heavens' - I've already quoted Rev 21:1-3 I'm unclear the difficulty you have understanding it.

Point 3)- 'I'm still not clear if you believe people will die and go to heaven.'
The answer to this is yes - the difference is that I think that's the case for all believers. Can you show me any Scriptures outside Revelation that make the case only some believers go to heaven?

However, when Jesus returns all will be raised with new bodies to enter the new heavens and new earth.

Point 4) 'Will the angels spend eternity out of God's presence since I presume they will remain in heaven when God relocates to live eternally on earth?'

I have no clue as the Bible doesn't comment on that question - and I have no special knowledge on the topic.

But note it is humans alone he creates in his image. Is it not odd that you seem to think it is more fitting for God to be literally in the presence of angels but not humans? This is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.