Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[JehovahsWitness]

you won't interpret Rev 21:1-3 as Jehovah literally living [...] I agree Rev 21 is highly metaphorical

Okay what part of Revelation 21 metaphorical?

[JehovahsWitness]

Point 4) 'Will the angels spend eternity out of God's presence since I presume they will remain in heaven when God relocates to live eternally on earth?'

I have no clue as the Bible doesn't comment on that question - and I have no special knowledge on the topic.

But you believe God is leaving them to relocate to the earth, so if they don't come down with him they will not be in God's presence for all eternity. Faithful angels will be eternally "separated" from God. That's a logical conclusion of what you said.

My questions are to try and get you to reason on what you are saying. You admit Revelation 21 is for the most part "metaphoric" but then take to a literal interpretation that creates more problems than it solves.

Onewithhim made some excellent points in post # 55 it would be great if you would address them.



JW

[dakoski]

The holy of holies in the temple of course is a picture of heaven - that we humans cannot be physically in the presence of Jehovah and live. We know this is literal as some actually died who did come into his presence.

- If we humans cannot be in God's presence and live, will all the humans die when God arrives on the earth?

Whenever a believer dies they are taken up to heaven [...] Those believers who have died will descend with Jesus to be with us in the new heavens and new earth.

By "us" do you mean the faithful humans living in physical bodies on the earth? If so, won't seeing God kill us?

So the people that have died. They go up to heaven but they subsequently come down again. Jesus comes down to earth (to live on earth?) Jehovah comes down to live on earth. (It is not clear from what you said if God (and Jesus) will take on human bodies to relocate to spend eternity the earth) And this situaton of everyone living on earth is called ... "the new heavens "?

The angels will spend eternity out of God's presence since I presume they will remain in heaven when God relocates to live eternally on earth.

Does this about sum up what you believe?


JW

Sorry I'm becoming confused by your posts as you are completely rewriting them after posting them.

I believe I've responded to point one about all of us being killed in the presence of the Father.

So I'll respond to point 2 where you've rephrased:

So the people that have died. They go up to heaven but they subsequently come down again. Jesus comes down to earth (to live on earth?) Jehovah comes down to live on earth. (It is not clear from what you said if God (and Jesus) will take on human bodies to relocate to spend eternity the earth) And this situaton of everyone living on earth is called ... "the new heavens "?

Yes I think all who were in heaven will descend to the new heavens and new earth with the Father, Son and Spirit.

Jesus as the first fruits of our resurrection will have a body as we do. The Father I have no clue as no human has ever seen him - nor does the Bible comment on the fact.

The angels will spend eternity out of God's presence since I presume they will remain in heaven when God relocates to live eternally on earth.

I'm not interesting in speculating either way as I don't think the Bible has anything to say on the matter. But since angels have entered the earth before (e.g. Gabriel, Michael) what's the problem with them being in the new heavens and new earth?

[dakoski]

Point 4) 'Will the angels spend eternity out of God's presence since I presume they will remain in heaven when God relocates to live eternally on earth?'

I have no clue as the Bible doesn't comment on that question - and I have no special knowledge on the topic.

But you believe God is leaving them to relocate to the earth, so if they don't come down with him they will not be in God's presence for all eternity. Faithful angels will be eternally "separated" from God. That's a logical conclusion of what you said.

JW

This is how many angels dance on a pin type question - if the Bible doesn't have an interest in answering nor do I.

I've answered many of your questions, it would be helpful if you answered what seems to me a key issue: where in Scripture outside of Revelations does it teach that some Christians will go to heaven for eternity but others will not? And what is the criteria by which Jehovah makes this judgement? I may have missed your response - but I appear to have asked several times without any reply.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 63 by dakoski]

You might not want to speculate but according to you heaven (where God currently lives) will be pretty much empty. God apparently cannot oversee his creation from his heavenly throne and somehow the earth will not be burnt to smitherenes when the one that created the entire universe comes down to live on one of it's tiniest planets.

And all this sounds about right to you? Listen, the bible is beautifully clear on the matter

PSALMS 115:16
The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but he gave the earth to human beings. - ISV

1 KINGS 8: 27
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.

[dakoski]

you won't interpret Rev 21:1-3 as Jehovah literally living [...] I agree Rev 21 is highly metaphorical

Okay what part of Revelation 21 metaphorical?

I'll answer if you first answer the question asked previously but didn't respond to - why interpret passages on the 144,000 literally but not Revelation 21? Its unfair to dodge my question and then expect me to answer yours.

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 65 by JehovahsWitness]

You might not want to speculate but according to you heaven (where God currently lives) will be pretty much empty. God apparently cannot oversee his creation from his heavenly throne and somehow the earth will not be burnt to smitherenes when the one that created the entire universe comes down to live on one of it's tiniest planets.

And all this sounds about right to you? Listen, the bible is beautifully clear on the matter

Quote:
PSALMS 115:16
The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but he gave the earth to human beings. - ISV

1 KINGS 8: 27
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. "

You're missing the point - neither of these passages contradict Rev 21.

1 Kings 8: Solomon is talking about how limited his temple is as a shadow of the heavenly realities to which it points

Psalm 115:
16 The highest heavens belong to the Lord,
but the earth he has given to mankind.
17 It is not the dead who praise the Lord,
those who go down to the place of silence;
18 it is we who extol the Lord,
both now and forevermore.

The point being made is that Jehovah has given his people Israel to be a kingdom of priest to reach out to the gentile nations and to worship him on the earth - this is a response of faith to a time of attack by these gentile nations. It says nothing about whether Jehovah will dwell in the new heavens and new earth.

[JehovahsWitness]

where in Scripture outside of Revelations does it teach that some Christians will go to heaven for eternity but others will not?

The same scriptures you agreed with. It seems to me your whole argument is that that humans will spend eternity on this our planet earth and the only point of contention is whether or not Jehovah will JOIN them.

Isaiah 11: 9
There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for THE EARTH shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea." -- New American Bible

Ecclesiastes 1: 4
"One generation goes and another comes; but THE EARTH is forever*."

Proverbs 2 v 21, 22 Douay-Rheims Bible
"For they that are upright shall dwell in THE EARTH, and the simple shall continue in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. -- King James Bible

Matthew 5: 5 American Standard Version
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit THE EARTH."

Matthew 6 v 10 Young's Literal Translationn "Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on THE EARTH."

Psalms 115:16 "The heavens belong to the LORD, but he has given THE EARTH to all humanity." New Living Translation (©2007)

PSALMS 72v8
May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of THE EARTH. New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Psalms 37:29 "The righteous themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will reside forever upon it."

Psalms 37:11:
"But the meek ones themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

As I said before I agree with you that the gospel hope is a new heaven and a new earth. So yes I wholeheartedly agree with the Scriptures you quoted.

[dakoski]

Point 4) 'Will the angels spend eternity out of God's presence since I presume they will remain in heaven when God relocates to live eternally on earth?'

I have no clue as the Bible doesn't comment on that question - and I have no special knowledge on the topic.

But you believe God is leaving them to relocate to the earth, so if they don't come down with him they will not be in God's presence for all eternity. Faithful angels will be eternally "separated" from God. That's a logical conclusion of what you said.

My questions are to try and get you to reason on what you are saying. You admit Revelation 21 is for the most part "metaphoric" but then take to a literal interpretation that creates more problems than it solves.

Onewithhim made some excellent points in post # 55 it would be great if you would address them.



JW

I've addressed the comments of onewithhim in great detail on the trinity thread, you can read my responses there.

I'm going to bed soon so probably won't be sending many other posts. To be honest, I'm not sure we're really getting anywhere as we're talking past each other .

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 22 by onewithhim]

It's because people think heaven is the only good place to be.
Why would they think this?
Because the doctrine has been taught for centuries, by Christendom.

Have you ever sat and watched telivision, and during a program, they interrupt, and show this ad, like 10-15 times in one sitting.

How easy is it to get that out of your head?
It's like trying to take a bone from a dog.

To take a bone from a dog, we may have to give the dog something that looks like a bone, and has a similar flavor. So they sell chew toys that look like bones.

So is heaven a reward for being good, and earth the reward for being bad?
Or is it more a case of the earth is our home, and we get to live there, if we are good?
So if the earth is our home, why do people go to heaven?

It seems that you have good reasoning ability & willingness to learn. These kinds of people are who Jesus called "the meek"----not weak, but humble & honest.

Is heaven a "reward for being good"? No. There have been many many people who were good but not chosen for ruling in Heaven. It was only since Jesus came here and died for mankind's sins that the hope of going to heaven became a viable issue. (John 3:13) And even after that, only relatively few were chosen for Heaven. In recent years you might have had two siblings, one who was chosen for Heaven and one who was not. Was the sibling who was not chosen somehow a bad person? No. We don't know how people are chosen to rule with Christ, but we do know that a person who is chosen knows absolutely that he has been chosen, and all he thinks about is the Kingdom and what he'll be doing in Heaven. The one who is not chosen has no desire to go to Heaven. He really wants to live in paradise on Earth. There is no superiority of the one over the other. They just have different desires.

Earth IS our home, and most of us have the desire to live forever on it. Isn't this obvious when somebody is deathly ill? They don't want to die; they want to go on living...HERE. Most people will try to extend their lives as much as possible. People are SAD when someone dies, most often excruciatingly sad. Especially if they have been taught that they will never see their loved one again, and even if they have been taught that they will meet their loved one someday in Heaven. Earth is where people really want to live, and God has intentions to give people this gift. We get to live here if we concede to following Jehovah's rules (which every Kingdom or government has), as well as recognizing Him as the Sovereign of the universe and worthy to receive our honor & friendship.

I think it has been explained why anyone will go to Heaven. Jehovah has kindly purposed that a certain number of people from Earth can go to Heaven and be with Jesus to reign with him for a thousand years, over the earth. (Revelation 5:10; 20:4,6) This is because humans are able to sympathize with others, seeing as they have gone through similar circumstances, so they will be helpful in guiding, with Jesus, all of the people who find themselves in paradise on Earth after Armageddon. It is kind of Jehovah and Jesus to delegate tasks, to people who were once physical humans on Earth.