Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[dakoski]

The answer's quite simple because Rev 21 says so - the problem is that you're both trying to argue against Scripture.

So your whole argument is based on one scripture which you yourself admit is in a chapter (Rev 21) which is "metaphorical"? Can you explain what is metaphorical in the passage you quoted from Revelation 21?


JW

Sorry there's many things wrong with this post:

1) That's a misrepresentation of my position

2) I've already answered many of your questions repeatedly, I've asked politely for you to reciprocate but you continue to keep ducking my questions. So you won't be getting any further answers until you begin answering my questions:

I've lost count how many times I've asked this:
Show me from Scripture that there are two categories of followers of Jehovah: 1) those who dwell in heaven for all eternity (ie. 144,000) 2) those who dwell on earth for eternity.

[onewithhim]

Point 4) 'Will the angels spend eternity out of God's presence since I presume they will remain in heaven when God relocates to live eternally on earth?'

I have no clue as the Bible doesn't comment on that question - and I have no special knowledge on the topic.

But you believe God is leaving them to relocate to the earth, so if they don't come down with him they will not be in God's presence for all eternity. Faithful angels will be eternally "separated" from God. That's a logical conclusion of what you said.

My questions are to try and get you to reason on what you are saying. You admit Revelation 21 is for the most part "metaphoric" but then take to a literal interpretation that creates more problems than it solves.

Onewithhim made some excellent points in post # 55 it would be great if you would address them.



JW

I've addressed the comments of onewithhim in great detail on the trinity thread, you can read my responses there.

I'm going to bed soon so probably won't be sending many other posts. To be honest, I'm not sure we're really getting anywhere as we're talking past each other .

Um, you did not address the comments I made & the questions I asked. I have yet to see your response to my question as to how humans could be physically next to the God who created the sun. Do you concede that a human being would not be able to bear being close to the sun? If a human could not, then how could a human be physically close to the Creator of the sun?

[dakoski]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Um, you did not address the comments I made & the questions I asked. I have yet to see your response to my question as to how humans could be physically next to the God who created the sun. Do you concede that a human being would not be able to bear being close to the sun? If a human could not, then how could a human be physically close to the Creator of the sun?

While your opinion of whether a person may be able to see their Creator and live is interesting - I'd rather direct you to Scripture:
'Jehovah spoke to Moses face-to-face,+ just as one man would speak to another man. ' Exodus 33:11 (NWT)

'All things came into existence through him,+ and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.' John 1:1 (NWT)

John 1:1 is saying that all things (that then also must include the sun) was created by Jesus. Then did not Jesus speak face to face with any humans - quite a few I recall.

[dakoski]

I've lost count how many times I've asked this:
Show me from Scripture that there are two categories of followers of Jehovah: 1) those who dwell in heaven for all eternity (ie. 144,000) 2) those who dwell on earth for eternity.

I've gone back and checked, I've asked this same question 10 times over 3 hours without a response (well one response that didn't actually answer the question but claimed to). Its fundamental to your position - so why do you refuse to answer it?

[JehovahsWitness]

Answer is eternity for both.

So it seems to me you are saying Yes, there will be humans living on this our planet earth for all eternity.

And God got to live in heaven for a while but He too will spend the rest of eternity on the earth (with those humans).

And nobody, not even God gets to live in heaven for all eternity.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

To clarify again if I understand you correctly:

1) Do you think there are 144,000 believers who are or will go to heaven for all eternity?

2) Do you think all other Christians will not go to heaven but will instead dwell on the earth for all eternity?

If so where in Scripture does it say that there are two categories of Jehovah's followers: i.e. those who go to heaven for eternity (the 144,000)

HEAVEN

REVELATION 14:3
and they sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn that song save the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were bought from the earth. - Darby Bible Translation

LUKE 12: 32
Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

1 COR 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

1 PETER 1:3, 4
In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you - NIV

... and those who dwell on the new earth for all eternity?

EARTH

PSALMS 37:29
Ain The righteous shall inherit the earth and live upon it for ever. - Jubilee Bible 2000

PROVERBS 2:21
For the upright do inhabit the earth, And the perfect are left in it - YLT

[JehovahsWitness]

I'd rather direct you to Scripture:
'Jehovah spoke to Moses face-to-face, just as one man would speak to another man. ' Exodus 33:11 (NWT)

The bible explicitly states:

"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

So when it Moses or others as "seeing" Jehovah God it means that they see a manifestation of his glory, and this is usually given by means of an angelic representative of the Almighty.

QUESTION: But did Moses not see God's face?

Not literally, no. Note that while the bible says: "GOD at once called to him [Moses] out of the midst of the thornbush" at the same time it says “JEHOVAH'S ANGEL appeared to him [...]in the midst of a thornbush" (Exodus 3: 2). So the bible sometimes refers to angels as being 'Jehovah' in the sense that they are his representatives. The disciple Steven explains that "the Law as transmitted [to Moses] by angels.� and says "Moses was “with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai.� (Acts 7:53).

Exodus 3:4, 6 “God called unto him out of the midst of the bush... “
Exodus 3: 2 “the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush�.

To illustrate, we might read the headline "Obama offers olive Branch to Moscow" but in reality it was perhaps The Secretary of State Clinton that literally visited Moscow and spoke to Putaine. So why does it say Obama, when it was not Obama that went to Russia? Because whoever he sent REPRESENTS him (Obama) and what he or she says is what the President wants her to say

So, when Deuteronomy 34:10 speaks of “Moses, whom Jehovah knew face to face,� it does not mean that Moses saw Jehovah’s very own face or person and should not be taken literally. It is a figurative or idiomatic expression that he merely had personal audience with God (by means of angels)


IDIOMATIC EXPRESSION

The English expression "face to face" is translated from a Hebrew idiom; paniym (Heb "face"), and means the presence; the word can thus be translated in a number of ways including
- presence, person
- before and behind, toward, in front of,
- forward, formerly, from beforetime, before

It does not have to literally refer to a person's face; the expression in Exodus, denotes intimate two-way conversation.

Even in english the we use the term "face" to refer to things OTHER than someone's literal face (face of the earth, to fall on your face, to have egg on your face, to face an issue, etc).





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[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????
dakoski wrote:

To clarify again if I understand you correctly:

1) Do you think there are 144,000 believers who are or will go to heaven for all eternity?

2) Do you think all other Christians will not go to heaven but will instead dwell on the earth for all eternity?




If so where in Scripture does it say that there are two categories of Jehovah's followers: i.e. those who go to heaven for eternity (the 144,000)

Quote:
HEAVEN

REVELATION 14:3
and they sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn that song save the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were bought from the earth. - Darby Bible Translation

LUKE 12: 32
Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

1 COR 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

1 PETER 1:3, 4
In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you - NIV

Thanks for the response.

There is absolutely no indication that any of these promises are made exclusively to a small minority of believers in contrast to the majority of believers who will not receive these promises.

In addition Galatians 3 makes clear there is no division of believers we are all inheritors of Abraham's promises:
'26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.'

I think this settles that your interpretation regarding the 144,000 in Revelation 14 is contradicted by Scripture.

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 87 by JehovahsWitness]

The bible explicitly states:
Quote:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)



So when it Moses or others as "seeing" Jehovah God it means that they see a manifestation of his glory, and this is usually given by means of an angelic representative of the Almighty.

Problem is that Exodus 33:11 doesn't mention any angel in any translation it just says Moses spoke to Jehovah face to face. To claim this was not Jehovah but someone else is to claim that Scripture is engaging in blasphemy by giving the name Jehovah to another who is not in fact Jehovah.

I agree there are other passages such as Exodus 3 where the angel (or the sent one) of Jehovah is also called Jehovah. There are many dozens of such passages - and they all consistently show there is one sent by Jehovah who humans see face to face and also bears the name Jehovah.

Of course, this is referring to Jesus the one sent by Jehovah to reveal him who no man has ever seen (John 1:18). John 12:41 also shows that when Isaiah saw Jehovah face to face he saw the glory of Jesus.

[JehovahsWitness]

There is absolutely no indication that any of these promises are made exclusively to a small minority of believers ...

Firstly I do believe the request was for scriptures proving there were two groups with two eventualities (one for heaven and one for earth). Regarding which of the two are bigger...

what kind of size do you believe 144,000 represents and why does Jesus refer to a "little flock" being given the kingdom?

And why did you say ...

I agree partly that the 144,000 is making the point that broad is the road to destruction but narrow is the path to salvation.

And what size would trying to make a point that something is "narrow" correspond to? A "majority" or a "minority"