Did Jesus exist? (Replaces earlier poll)

[Zzyzx]

.
Did Jesus live 2000 years ago, preach for a few years, and get executed?

This is NOT asking if you accept that he performed miracles or was supernatural – only that he existed, preached, was executed.

All are encouraged to explain why they do or do not accept



This thread / poll replaces an earlier one that was poorly worded.

Apologies to those who contributed to the previous thread (which is now in the Trash Can)

[Willum]

[Replying to MadeNew]

Sure, but this in turn means you acknowledge the fraudulence of Jesus, Lazarus and all the made-up characters:
Approach: How many countries were there back then with leaders? If each one of them had two important friends...

But I get the impression this will be 20 minutes of my life I never get back.

Antonia Minor, Roman noblewoman, mother of Germanicus and Claudius
Ban Chao, Chinese general
Boudica, Celtic Briton leader
Claudia Octavia, empress of Rome
Claudius (Tiberius Claudius Nero), emperor of Rome
Drusus the Elder (Nero Claudius Drusus), Roman general
Galba
Guangwu of Han, emperor of China
Heraios, Kushan chieftain
Kujula Kadphises
Livia Drusilla, first empress of Rome
Ma Yuan, Chinese general
Ming of Han, Chinese emperor
Trung Sisters, Vietnamese rebel leaders
Valeria Messalina, empress of Rome
Shorkaror King c.
Pisakar King mid st century
Amanitaraqide King mid st century
Amanitenmemide King mid st century
Mauretania complete list
Juba II client King under Rome BC
Ptolemy client King under Rome
Daru King
Giru King
Daemusin King
Minjung King
Mobon King
Taejodae King
Yuri King
Talhae King
Heraios Clan chief c.c.
Kujula Kphises Ruler/Emperor c.c.
Pulumavi I King
Gaura Krishna King
H�la King
Mandalaka aka Puttalaka or Pulumavi II King
Amandagamani Abhaya King
Kanirajanu Tissa King
Chulabhaya King
Sivali King
Interregnum
Ilanaga King
Chandamukha King
Antiochus IV King
Aretas IV Philopatris King / BC/
Malichus II King //
Ma'nu V King
Ma'nu VI King
Abgar VI King
Orodes III Great King Shah
Vonones I Great King Shah
Artabanus III Great King Shah
Tiridates III Great King Shah
Artabanus III Great King Shah
Vardanes I Great King Shah
Gotarzes II Great King Shah
Vonones II Great King Shah
Monobaz I client King under Parthia sc.
Heleni Queen c.c.
Izates bar Monobaz client King under Parthia c./
Vologases I a Parthian rebel opposing Izates II c.
Attambelos III client King under Parthia c.//
Theonesios II client King under Parthia c./
Theonesios III client King under Parthia c./
Attambelos IV client King under Parthia //
Kamnaskires VII client King under Parthia c. BCc.
Kamnaskires VIII client King under Parthia c.c.
Kamnaskires IX client King under Parthia c.c.
Orodes I client King under Parthia c.c.
Orodes II client King under Parthia c.c.
Phraates client King under Parthia c.c.
Orodes III client King under Parthia c.c.
KamnaskiresOrodes client King under Parthia c.c.
Zorsines King fl.
Herod Agrippa I
Herod of Chalcis client Tetrarch of Chalcis under Rome
Herod Agrippa II
Kingdom of Pontus complete list
Pythodorida client queen under Rome BC
Polemon II client King under Rome
Gaius Julius Civilis Leer ?c.
Cartimandua Queen
Venutius King ?c. ?
Vellocatus King c.c.
Eppillus King ?
Cunobelinus King
Togodumnus King ?
Caratacus King ?c.
Corieltauvi
Volisios King c.
Dumnocoveros Subking under Volisios c.
Dubnovellaunus Subking under Volisios c.
Cartivelios Subking under Volisios c.
Antedios King s
Prasutagus King
Regnenses
Tiberius Claudius Cogidubnus King ?
Scorilo King c.
Tiberius Principate Emperor
Gaius "Caligula" Emperor
Claudius Emperor
Nero Emperor
Galba Emperor
Otho Emperor
Vitellius Emperor
Vespasian Emperor
Aspurgus client King under Rome BC
Mithridates III client King under Rome
Cotys I client King under Rome
Rhoemetalces II client King of Thrace under Rome
Rhoemetalces III client King of Thrace under Rome
Verica client King of Thrace under Rome
Artaxias III client King under Rome
Arsaces I client King under Parthia
Orodes client King under Parthia
Mithridates client King under Rome
Rhamistus client King under Rome
Tiridates I client King under Rome
Pharasmanes I the Great King
Mihrdat I King
P. Cornelius Dolabella JanuaryJune C. Junius Silanus
Ser. Cornelius Lentulus Maluginensis JulyDecember Q. Junius Blaesus
M'. Aemilius Lepidus JanuaryJune T. Statilius Taurus JanuaryDecember
L. Cassius Longinus JulyDecember
Germanicus Julius Caesar JanuaryDecember C. Fonteius Capito JanuaryJune
C. Visellius Varro JulyDecember
Gaius Silius JanuaryJune L. Munatius Plancus JanuaryDecember
C. Caecina Largus JulyDecember
Sex. Pompeius JanuaryDecember Sex. Appuleius
Drusus Julius Caesar JanuaryDecember C. Norbanus Flaccus JanuaryJune
M. Junius Silanus JulyDecember
Sisenna Statilius Taurus JanuaryJune L. Scribonius Libo
C. Vibius Rufus JulyDecember P. Pomponius Graecinus
L. Pomponius Flaccus JanuaryJune C. Caelius Rufus
C. Vibius Marsus JulyDecember L. Voluseius Proculus
Ti. Caesar Augustus III January Germanicus Julius Caesar II JanuaryApril
L. Seius Tubero FebruaryJuly Livineius Regulus MayJuly
C. Rubellius Blandus AugustDecember M. Vipstanus Gallus
M. Junius Silanus Torquatus JanuaryDecember L. Norbanus Balbus JanuaryApril
P. Petronius MayDecember
M. Valerius Messala JanuaryDecember M. Aurelius Cotta Maximus Messalinus
Ti. Caesar Augustus IV JanuaryJune Drusus Julius Caesar II
Mam. Aemilius Scaurus JulyDecember Cn. Tremellius
D. Haterius Agrippa C. Sulpicius Galba
C. Asinius Pollio JanuaryDecember C. Antistius Vetus JanuaryJune
C. Stertinius Maximus JulyDecember
Ser. Cornelius Cethegus JanuaryJune L. Visellius Varro
C. Calpurnius Aviola JulyDecember P. Cornelius Lentulus Scipio
Cossus Cornelius Lentulus JanuaryAugust M. Asinius Agrippa JanuaryDecember
C. Petronius SeptemberDecember
Cn. Cornelius Lentulus Gaetulicus JanuaryJune C. Calvisius Sabinus
Q. Junius Blaesus JulyDecember L. Antistus Vetus
L. Calpurnius Piso JanuaryJune M. Licinius Crassus Frugi
P. Cornelius Lentulus JulyDecember C. Sallustius Crispus Passienus I
Ap. Junius Silanus JanuaryJune P. Silius Nerva
L. Junius Silanus JulyDecember C. Vellaeus Tutor
C. Fufius Geminus JanuaryJune L. Rubellius Geminus
A. Plautius JulyDecember L. Nonius Asprenas
L. Cassius Longinus JanuaryJune M. Vinicius
L. Naevius Surdinus JulyDecember C. Cassius Longinus
Ti. Caesar Augustus V January May L. Aelius Seianus
Faustus Cornelius Sulla MaySeptember Sex. Tedius Valerius Catullus MayJune
L. Fulcinius Trio JulyDecember
P. Memmius Regulus OctoberDecember
Cn. Domitius Ahenobarbus JanuaryDecember L. Arruntius Camillus Scribonianus JanuaryJune
A. Vitellius JulyDecember
L. Livius Ocella Ser. Sulpicius Galba JanuaryJune L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
L. Salvius Otho JulyDecember C. Octavius Laenas
Paullus Fabius Persicus JanuaryJune L. Vitellius
Q. Marcius Barea Soranus JulyDecember T. Rustius Nummius Gallus
C. Cestius Gallus JanuaryJune M. Servilius Nonianus
D. Valerius Asiaticus JulyDecember A. Gabinius Secundus
Sex. Papinius Allenius JanuaryJune Q. Plautius
M. Porcius Cato JulyDecember ignotus
Cn. Acerronius Proculus JanuaryJune C. Petronius Pontius Nigrinus
C. Caesar Augustus Germanicus JulyAugust Ti. Claudius Nero Germanicus
A. Caecina Paetus SeptemberDecember C. Caninius Rebilus
M. Aquila Julianus JanuaryJune P. Nonius Asprenas
Ser. Asinius Celer JulyDecember Sex. Nonius Quintilianus
C. Caesar Augustus Germanicus II January L. Apronius Caesianus JanuaryJune
Q. Sanquinius Maximus FebruaryJune
Cn. Domitius Corbulo July September ignotus
A. Didius Gallus SeptemberDecember Cn. Domitius Afer
C. Caesar Augustus Germanicus III To January sine collega
C. Laecanius Bassus JanuaryJune Q. Terentius Culleo
T. Axius JulyDecember T. Mussidius Pollianus
C. Caesar Augustus Germanicus IV January Cn. Sentius Saturninus JanuaryJune
Q. Pomponius Secundus FebruaryJune
Q. Futius Lusius Saturninus SeptemberOctober M. Seius Varanus
P. Ostorius Scapula NovemberDecember P. Suilius Rufus
Ti. Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus II JanuaryFebruary C. Caecina Largus JanuaryDecember
C. Cestius Gallus II March? June
Cornelius Lupus
Ti. Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus III JanuaryFebruary L. Vitellius II
Sex. Palpellius Hister MarchJuly L. Pedanius Secundus
A. Gabinius Secundus AugustSeptember ignotus
Q. Curtius Rufus OctoberDecember L. Oppius
L. S[...] NovemberDecember ignotus
C. Sallustius Crispus Passienus II early January T. Statilius Taurus JanuaryJune
P. Calvisius Sabinus Pomponius Secundus early JanuaryJune
Cn. Hosidius Geta JulyDecember T. Flavius Sabinus JulyAugust
Vipsania Agrippina Major, Roman noblewoman,
Empress(first): Sahohime (狭穂姫命), daughter of Hikoimasu (彦�王)
Prince Homutsuwake (誉津別命)
Empress(second): Hibasuhime (日葉酢媛命), daughter of Tanba no Michinoushi (丹波�主王)
Prince Inishikiirihiko (五�瓊敷入彦命)
Prince Ootarashihikoosirowake (大足彦�代別尊) Emperor Keik�
Princess Oonakatsuhime (大中姫命)
Princess Yamatohime (倭姫命) Sai�
Prince Wakakiniirihiko (稚城瓊入彦命)
Nubataniirihime (渟葉田瓊入媛), younger sister of Hibasuhime
Prince Nuteshiwake (�石別命), ancestor of Wake clan (Wake no Kiyomaro)
Princess Ikatarashimime (胆香足姫命)
Matonohime (真砥野媛), younger sister of Hibasuhime
Azaminiirihime (薊瓊入媛), younger sister of Hibasuhime
Prince Ikohayawake (�速別命)
Princess Wakaasatsuhime (稚浅津姫命)
Kaguyahime (迦具夜比売), daughter of Ootsutsukitarine (大筒木垂根王)
Prince Onabe (�那�王)
Kanihatatobe (綺戸辺), daughter of Yamashiro no Ookuni no Fuchi (山背大国��)
Prince Iwatsukuwake (�撞別命), ancestor of Mio clan (三尾�)
Princess Futajiirihime (両�入姫命), wife of Yamatotakeru, mother of Emperor Chūai
Karihatatobe (苅幡戸辺), older sister of Kanihatatobe
Prince Oochiwake (祖別命)
Prince Ikatarashihiko (五�日足彦命)
Prince Itakeruwake (胆武別命)
Shorkaror, King
Pisakar,
Ptolomy

Forgive duplications.

[Zzyzx]

.

No I'm not kidding, this is about your knowledge of people who were alive in 30AD. I doubt you can list more then 100. Give me a list... You think all these people should have been known, right?

How many people could you list? Give me a number

Although the request seems a bit silly (and a amateurish debate tactic):

Pages in category "1st-century Romans"

The following 200 pages are in this category, out of 625 total.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... ury_Romans

[MadeNew]

Ok, lets take both list you two gave me, and say that nothing is duplicated.

Thats about 229 from willum and we will say 625 from Z, combined to 854... Is that it?

Out of 250 million people living at the time (conservative estimate)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_pop ... _estimates

You have given names of 0.00034% of the overall population of the time....
That means 99.99966% of the people living back then are still unaccounted for.

[Zzyzx]

.

You have given names of 0.00034% of the overall population of the time....
That means 99.99966% of the people living back then are still unaccounted for.

Notice that the named people are credited with actually existing and actually doing something of importance.

Chroniclers, commentators, and historians tend mention people who actually do something worth noting. People who do little or nothing of importance are seldom mentioned.

A person who actually performed miracles, brought dead people back to life, cured blindness with spit and mud, died and came back to life, etc (the most important event ever according to religionists) could be expected to be noticed.

However, the only people who seem to have mentioned Jesus are storytelling religion promoters who cannot be shown to have witnessed the 'miracles' they write about (decades or generations later).

Sounds a little fishy doesn't it?

[MadeNew]

.

You have given names of 0.00034% of the overall population of the time....
That means 99.99966% of the people living back then are still unaccounted for.

Notice that the named people are credited with actually existing and actually doing something of importance.

Chroniclers, commentators, and historians tend mention people who actually do something worth noting. People who do little or nothing of importance are seldom mentioned.

A person who actually performed miracles, brought dead people back to life, cured blindness with spit and mud, died and came back to life, etc (the most important event ever according to religionists) could be expected to be noticed.

However, the only people who seem to have mentioned Jesus are storytelling religion promoters who cannot be shown to have witnessed the 'miracles' they write about (decades or generations later).

Sounds a little fishy doesn't it?

Cant be shown to have been an eye witness? That is only your opinion of the evidence. By "can't be shown to be an eye witness" Does that mean you are not sure if someone was an eye witness of Jesus, or do you assert that these people were NOT eye witnesses?

And anyone who would confirm a miracle done by Jesus, no matter how independent it is, you would call a religious promoter. The evidence you ask for, you would reject if given, just like you reject the evidence that already is confirming these things.

[MadeNew]

You guys have given names of 0.00034% of the overall population of the time, and have 99.99966% of the people unaccounted for. And of those named, you are probably unfamiliar with upwards of 90% of them, just pulling random lists from internet searches.. That means, using my assumed "people known" percentage, you would only know about 85 people from the first century... And of those, we might have only a single source for, just discussed in one book.

Yet you sit here and debate that not enough information was provided for you about people and stories that you know in-depth, and a multitude of books have been written about.

This is illogical, your reasoning isn't valid reasoning, and the statement "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is obviously true. (Especially when we have evidence! And a lot of it! But Just not enough by your impossible standards)

infinite regresses don't lead to any conclusions.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 194 by MadeNew]

Yes, but the names of significant people are very well accounted for, even as I pointed out to you criminals and crack-pots.
We can dig and dig and dig, and I'll wager we could find records for 10% of the population. They would be related to land purchases, criminal executions, generals, and so on.

Jesus ain't there.
The Apostles ain't there.

Lazarus, despite being the only man to return from the grave (and live to tell about it) ain't there.

So, we have extended you a great courtesy even in looking up a hundred+ names, and when we did that it was not good enough.

If we continued to identify every name written on every piece of vellum, every surviving sheep transaction or land purchase, it would not be good enough, I'll wager, and be an incredible drain on our of time. (And then how would you reward us?)

Which also stands to reason - Jesus was a carpenter, how much do you think, "Dining Table by Jesus," would be worth today?

Except it doesn't exist and never did.

The man not only left no divine evidence, he left no historic evidence and he left no physical evidence.
He had no documentable associates, that aren't likely forgeries.

You can ignore each one of these facts, alone, with difficulty and immense will, but when they compound?
Probability Jesus was only documented in the NT: assume 10%
Probability that the 14 major characters in the Bible were only documented there 0.10^1000000000000000 x100
=0.0000000000001%

Probability that there is no evidence left from feeding the multitudes with some fish and bread: So low as to be unmeasurable.

Probability that no one kept a chair he made... OMG, so low as to be unmeasurable.


The idea that as significant figure as Jesus or Lazarus could only exist in one volume is inconceivable.

Jesus did not exist.

[Kalidor]

The historic Jesus...aka Jesus (John) of Gamala or King Esus Manu of Edessa was a Nazarine High Priest and King of Edessa, which was located somewhere along the Euphrates.

Along with others he led the First Jewish Revolt against Rome..making no secret of the fact he had ideas of becoming Emperor of Rome. Unfortunately he lost!

Subsequently Jesus was crucified and to mock his ambitions the Romans placed a makeshift crown on his head to mimic his real crown as King of Edessa - a crown of thorns - and dressed him in a purple robe which only the Emperor of Rome was allowed to wear.

Jesus was cut down from the cross by Josepheus Flavius (St Paul) and sent into exile were he spent the rest of his days. The reason why the tomb was empty is because the King of the (Nazarine) Jews was never interred in the first place.

For your consideration only...the truth is YOURS to decide.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

The historic Jesus...aka Jesus (John) of Gamala or King Esus Manu of Edessa was a Nazarine High Priest and King of Edessa, which was located somewhere along the Euphrates.

Along with others he led the First Jewish Revolt against Rome..making no secret of the fact he had ideas of becoming Emperor of Rome. Unfortunately he lost!

Subsequently Jesus was crucified and to mock his ambitions the Romans placed a makeshift crown on his head to mimic his real crown as King of Edessa - a crown of thorns - and dressed him in a purple robe which only the Emperor of Rome was allowed to wear.

Jesus was cut down from the cross by Josepheus Flavius (St Paul) and sent into exile were he spent the rest of his days. The reason why the tomb was empty is because the King of the (Nazarine) Jews was never interred in the first place.

For your consideration only...the truth is YOURS to decide.

Assuming that you are being serious (it's often hard to tell if someone is being serious or not), exactly what is your source for this particular claim?

[Kalidor]

[Replying to post 197 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Hi

Deadly Serious.

The Collective works of Ralph Ellis...check Amazon or YouTube him for a breif overview.

Interesting reading that I followed up with my own research in the library and internet. Even Wikipedia has a Jesus of Gamala page but i can't verify its authenticity...i prefer searching obscure sites and corellating the data.

Cheers