Serious Research?

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:32 pm

Hoghead1 wrote in post 148 of â€œWhat is a soul?â€�

FYI: [A] I've done some serious research on the NWT, which is precisely why I say it is bogus. For one thing, the translators are kept secret. this is the only translation of teh Bible I have ever found where nobody wants to reveal who the translators were. [C]More importantly, the text, key points, has been unduly corrupted to suit the biases of teh WatchTower Society. For example, in the prologue to JN. the indefinite article "a" is inserted, so that the text is mistranslated as "and the Word was a God." The rules of Greek grammar rule out the use of teh indefinite article here, which is why it is absent in the solid, standard translations. The reason why the WatchTower Society want the "a" in there is that this will support their anti-Trinitarian bias. [D]Also, in passages that speak of Hell and torment, the NWT reads "annihilation." That was done to bludgeon Scripture to fit their bias about the afterlife. It is one thing to disagree with Scripture. I respect that. it is quite another to corrupt the translation so that it agree with your position. [E]Also, "Jehovah" is a serious mistranslation. And that is Hebrew 101 material. So I feel I have very good reason to write off the NWT as bogus and corrupt.

I intend to discuss the individual parts (A-E) of the above.

Iâ€™ll save part A for last.

B. You wrote:

â€œFor one thing, the translators are kept secret. this is the only translation of teh [sic] Bible I have ever found where nobody wants to reveal who the translators were.â€�

For the first 30 years at least, the publishers of the NASB kept their translators anonymous:

â€œThe Fourfold Aim of The Lockman Foundation
1.These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew and Greek.
2. They shall be grammatically correct.
3. They shall be understandable to the masses.
4. They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; no work will ever be personalized.â€� - page v., NASB, Ref. Ed., Lockman Foundation, 1971.

â€œFor many years the names of the NASB translators and editors were withheld by the publisher. But in 1995 this information was finally disclosed.â€� - http://www.bible-researcher.com/nasb.html

Bible translations of the OT and NT texts should be judged according to their accuracy - not the person(s) who did the translation.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:31 am

tigger2 wrote:
hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 25 by JehovahsWitness]

There is no "Jehovah" in the Bible, period. It is a serious mistranslation.
There is no "Jesus" in the Bible, period. It is a clear mistransliteration.

"Jehovah" is a transliteration. LORD is a serious mistranslation.

I stopped reading hoghead's stuff because he cannot be reasoned with, not even bothering to read what I post. I spent 2 hours writing a post to him awhile back and he didn't even take it seriously enough to read it. But I see his comment to you, tigger, where he says the above....."No 'Jehovah' in the Bible"!!! How many of us have answered that objection by him? He still doesn't respect the fact that "Jehovah" is as serious an acceptable pronunciation as "Jesus," which isn't the name Jesus went by---and we know this for a fact! So does hoghead, and others, refuse to stop using the name "Jesus"? I doubt it.

I posted the fact that according to the Aramaic language (which is what the Bible was written in), Jesus was actually called ESHOO. That is the exact name that he would have responded to.

Mr. hoghead, will you now stop saying "Jesus" and use his Aramaic name, Eshoo?

Here are the Apostles' names in Aramaic:

Simon...Shimun Kepa
Andrew...Andreaos
James...Yacob
John...Yokhannan
Philip...Pilipus
Bartholomew...Bartolmi
Thomas...Tooma
Matthew...Mattai
James...Yacob Bar-Khalpai
Lebbaeus...Labai or Taddai
Simon...Shimun Kananaya or Tanana
Judas...Ehodah Scariota

So....to follow hoghead's logic, there are no Simons or Andrews or Jameses or Johns or any of the other Apostles' names in the Bible either!

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:46 am

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I'm not interested in addressing the question of who JEHOVAH is, I am only here to address the point as to whether the NWT has inserted the Tetragrammaton where it would not have appeared in the original text.

The scripture in question is 1 Cor 10:9, and the references I provided is that there is a strong argument that the word "christ" was not in the original text. Check the references provided and get back with a counter-argument if you are so inclined in regard to the accurate translation of the verse in question.

I was originally responding to 2 Timothy 3:16 who was arguing the passage isn't talking about Christ but Jehovah. So if you weren't interested in this why respond to me?

As I've said above - I don't have a problem with the NWT using Jehovah in 1 Cor 10:9 - so I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

I think its quite appropriate as Paul is saying it was Christ who accompanied the people in the desert wanderings (1 Cor 10:4). So then I guess we're agreeing then that its appropriate for Paul to call Christ Jehovah. So I certainly wouldn't be arguing against 1 Cor 10:9 using the name Jehovah - since Paul is using the titles Christ and Jehovah in the passage interchangeably. That also appears to be picked up in the manuscript variants where LORD, Lord, or Christ are used - given the context of the passage these textual variants are expected as they effectively mean the same thing in the context of 1 Cor 10.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:17 am

dakoski wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I'm not interested in addressing the question of who JEHOVAH is, I am only here to address the point as to whether the NWT has inserted the Tetragrammaton where it would not have appeared in the original text.

The scripture in question is 1 Cor 10:9, and the references I provided is that there is a strong argument that the word "christ" was not in the original text. Check the references provided and get back with a counter-argument if you are so inclined in regard to the accurate translation of the verse in question.
I was originally responding to 2 Timothy 3:16 who was arguing the passage isn't talking about Christ but Jehovah. So if you weren't interested in this why respond to me?

As I've said above - I don't have a problem with the NWT using Jehovah in 1 Cor 10:9 - so I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

I think its quite appropriate as Paul is saying it was Christ who accompanied the people in the desert wanderings (1 Cor 10:4). So then I guess we're agreeing then that its appropriate for Paul to call Christ Jehovah. So I certainly wouldn't be arguing against 1 Cor 10:9 using the name Jehovah - since Paul is using the titles Christ and Jehovah in the passage interchangeably. That also appears to be picked up in the manuscript variants where LORD, Lord, or Christ are used - given the context of the passage these textual variants are expected as they effectively mean the same thing in the context of 1 Cor 10.

How does Paul use "Christ" and "Jehovah" interchangeably? I don't see that at all. If Jesus was in the pillar of cloud or fire when leading the Israelites out of Egypt, he was there FOR Jehovah. He wasn't actually Jehovah. He always REPRESENTED Jehovah, being His spokesman.

Now, how are we supposed to get "Jehovah" out of I Corinthians 10:4?

Because Jehovah is mentioned by Paul in verse 9? How do you land there in your reasoning? Paul is obviously speaking of two different persons. The people were constantly "putting Jehovah to the test" in their travels from Egypt, constantly complaining about one thing or the other, and disobeying His instructions. It was Jehovah who told them what to do, and it was Jehovah's power that was used to accomplish things for the people. If Jesus was involved, it was to be the spokesman for Jehovah or the person to follow through on Jehovah's project, such as the pillar of cloud guiding the people.

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:31 am

[Replying to onewithhim]

How does Paul use "Christ" and "Jehovah" interchangeably? I don't see that at all. If Jesus was in the pillar of cloud or fire when leading the Israelites out of Egypt, he was there FOR Jehovah. He wasn't actually Jehovah. He always REPRESENTED Jehovah, being His spokesman.

Now, how are we supposed to get "Jehovah" out of I Corinthians 10:4?

Let's start with 1 Cor 10:4
1 Cor 10:1-4 NWT

Now I want you to know, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud+ and all passed through the sea+ 2 and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food+ 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink.+ For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant* the Christ.+ 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

This is saying Christ is the person accompanying the people in the desert.

1 Cor 10:5-11

Now these things became examples for us, in order for us not to desire injurious things, as they desired them.+ 7 Neither become idolaters, as some of them did; just as it is written: â€œThe people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time.â€�+ 8 Neither let us practice sexual immorality,* as some of them committed sexual immorality,* only to fall, 23,000 of them in one day.+ 9 Neither let us put Jehovah* to the test,+ as some of them put him to the test, only to perish by the serpents.+ 10 Neither be murmurers, as some of them murmured,+ only to perish by the destroyer.+ 11 Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us+ upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

Paul gives specific examples where they tested Christ in the desert in v 5-8. And then says in v9 'Neither let us put Jehovah to the test'. That's pretty clear to me then given the context Paul is saying don't put Jehovah to the test he's specifically referring to Christ who the Isrealites put to the test in the desert wanderings. The passages in Deuteronomy and Numbers of course use the name Jehovah - so Paul is clearly using Christ and Jehovah interchangeably.

Talishi · Post by **Talishi** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:33 am

onewithhim wrote: Because Jehovah is mentioned by Paul in verse 9?

The only time YWHW appears in the NT is when someone is reading from an OT scroll. No existing NT manuscripts contain the tetragrammaton outside of the case of quoting the OT.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:09 am

dakoski wrote: [Replying to onewithhim]

How does Paul use "Christ" and "Jehovah" interchangeably? I don't see that at all. If Jesus was in the pillar of cloud or fire when leading the Israelites out of Egypt, he was there FOR Jehovah. He wasn't actually Jehovah. He always REPRESENTED Jehovah, being His spokesman.

Now, how are we supposed to get "Jehovah" out of I Corinthians 10:4?
Let's start with 1 Cor 10:4
1 Cor 10:1-4 NWT
Now I want you to know, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud+ and all passed through the sea+ 2 and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food+ 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink.+ For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant* the Christ.+ 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.
This is saying Christ is the person accompanying the people in the desert.

1 Cor 10:5-11

Now these things became examples for us, in order for us not to desire injurious things, as they desired them.+ 7 Neither become idolaters, as some of them did; just as it is written: â€œThe people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time.â€�+ 8 Neither let us practice sexual immorality,* as some of them committed sexual immorality,* only to fall, 23,000 of them in one day.+ 9 Neither let us put Jehovah* to the test,+ as some of them put him to the test, only to perish by the serpents.+ 10 Neither be murmurers, as some of them murmured,+ only to perish by the destroyer.+ 11 Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us+ upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.
Paul gives specific examples where they tested Christ in the desert in v 5-8. And then says in v9 'Neither let us put Jehovah to the test'. That's pretty clear to me then given the context Paul is saying don't put Jehovah to the test he's specifically referring to Christ who the Isrealites put to the test in the desert wanderings. The passages in Deuteronomy and Numbers of course use the name Jehovah - so Paul is clearly using Christ and Jehovah interchangeably.

Why do you think Paul was "giving examples of CHRIST being tested in the desert"? He doesn't say that. It was JEHOVAH, the God and Father of Christ, who the Israelites put to the test. Jehovah is the MOST HIGH (Psalm 83:18, KJV), the "only true God" (John 17:3), Christ's God and Father (John 20:17).....the One from which all life and power comes. Christ is His Son and His Word (spokesman), and carries out assignments that Jehovah gives him to do. There is no logical reason whatsoever to say that Jesus and Jehovah are the same Person.

John 12:49,50
John 5:19
John 8:29

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:17 am

[Replying to onewithhim]

Why do you think Paul was "giving examples of CHRIST being tested in the desert"? He doesn't say that. It was JEHOVAH, the God and Father of Christ, who the Israelites put to the test. Jehovah is the MOST HIGH (Psalm 83:18, KJV), the "only true God" (John 17:3), Christ's God and Father (John 20:17).....the One from which all life and power comes. Christ is His Son and His Word (spokesman), and carries out assignments that Jehovah gives him to do. There is no logical reason whatsoever to say that Jesus and Jehovah are the same Person.

John 12:49,50
John 5:19
John 8:29

What do you think the relationship is between 1 Cor 10:1-4 and 1 Cor 10:5-11? They are completely unrelated?

1 Cor 10:1-11 is speaking about the wanderings in the desert as an example of how Jehovah deals with his people.

We know that Jehovah accompanied the people in the cloud wherever they went and provided for them physically and spiritually. V4 points out this person Jehovah who accompanied them was Christ.

v5-11 give specific ways in which they rebelled against and tested Jehovah who accompanied them in the cloud (i.e. according v4 Christ).

I really don't see from the context how it could be interpreted any other way - could you tell me how you interpret 1 Cor 10:1-11?

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:59 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
bjs wrote: One maintains the original consonants while knowingly using the incorrect vowels.
Firstly as I said, without knowing which vowels were originally in place then there is no way to actually determine if the vowels in place are "incorrect"; you may thus persist labelling them such for your own non academic satisfaction (or for whatever reason you have) but that doesn't make it a provable fact. Since there is a one in 6 chance any vowel placed is correct and nobody knows exactly which were placed where, it would be academically impossible to lable any combination "incorrect" as you seem fixated in doing.

Ancient Greek transliterations of the divine name suggest that the second letter should sound a short a, not a short e. We also have explicit notes in some Hebrew manuscripts that the vowels surrounding the tetragrammaton (the vowels we used to get to â€œJehovahâ€�) were not the accurate ones. It is true that we cannot with certainty determine what the original vowels were. However, this seems like sufficiently (and even academically) satisfying evidence that original pronunciation used different vowels than the ones that were transliterated into the word Jehovah.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:04 pm

[Replying to post 66 by bjs]

The theories are many as to the exact pronunciation of the divine name; if you are trying to suggest there is a consensus on the matter that is far from the case. If anything though there is a leaning by modern day scholars to the three-syllable rendition rather than the two syllable Yahweh; making the Hebrew pronunciation of Yehowah and its english equivalent possibly closer to the original

(See George Wesley Buchanan; "How God's Name Was Pronounced", Biblical Archaeology Review Mar./Apr. 1995 Volume 21 Number 2; page 30. Harris, Archer, Waltke; "Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament" #484. James Trimm; "Nazarenes and the Name of YHWH," and "In Fame Only? A Historical Record of the Divine Name," by Gerard Gertoux)

But again, there is no academic wide consensus on that or which vowels, were used. In short, the only thing we can say for sure is we don't know for sure. Since this is the case what is considered "satisfying evidence" is just one more uncertain conclusion. In the end, as I said [here in post #22 ] (and I presume you will agree) which vowels and how they were pronounced is not the most important thing.

JW

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:26 pm

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

That isn't at all accurate. There is a general consensus among scholars that Yahweh is he correct pronunciation. Granted, some,. here and there, have argued for other pronunciations, such as Yha-oo-ay. However, I am going to go with the general consensus.