What Are Your Christian Non-Negotiables?

[ElCodeMonkey]

To be "saved", what are the absolute non-negotiables? What must you absolutely do, believe, trust, say, etc? Jesus died for sins, Jesus is God, Belief in Trinity, Baptism, etc, etc. What cannot be ignored for salvation?

[onewithhim]

I will leave my brothers and sisters to speak for themselves but I am confident you will not find any significant disagreement on matters faith and salvation when it comes to Jehovah's Witnesses. Anywhere in the world.

I don't believe that for one second. But you keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

If it were true, I'm betting your bible study/discussion groups are very very boring with everyone in agreement with one another.

I know I might get dinged here for echoing JW here but I want to add my comment for emphasis.

Without a doubt, on matters of faith and salvation there are no significant disagreements with my spiritual brothers and sisters. I have traveled to many congregations and spoken to many Witnesses from coast to coast. I do not have to worry about walking into a different congregation and wonder, 'what do they teach here'. I already know what they teach.

Someone saying a negative comment about our unity is nothing new either. Though saying it would be boring is rare. Those that say such a thing must not get along with many people to begin with and peace with others must be rare. If conflict is a person's aim then yes I am sure the JW studies would be extremely boring. Yet I can't help but be amazed that it's not some wall or threat that is keeping pot stirrers away from our meetings, but our unity and peace. Truly Jehovah God knows how to keep peace safe from those that would rather disrupt it.

When I walked into a congregation in Germany it was like walking into my home congregation.....everything was the same. In Germany we were even studying the very same Watchtower that our brothers in the U.S. were studying that day. The only difference was that the German-language congregations there were conducting their meetings in German. The whole experience was awesome.

[tam]

Perhaps OC would like to hear from someone who is not a JW but who has attended a few of those meetings?

If so...


The WTBTS (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) is, I believe, the legal name of that religion.

Tract is an important part of the name because they send out Watchtower (and Awake) tracts (magazines) every month. The tract comes from the writing committee and the information contained therein is what JW's read and accept as true.


So at the meeting, an article (or two) from the WT magazine of the month is read by one person from the small stage at the front of the room. Everyone else is sitting and listening. They are all reading word for word from the magazine. Then questions (which questions are also written in the magazine - so that everything is scripted) are asked to the members in the audience. The members then raise their hands and are called upon by the elder to give the answer. They can read directly from the magazine, or they can put the answer from the magazine in their own words, perhaps even give an example of what is written if they have such an example.

So... the article is read, the scripted questions are asked, members are called upon to give the answer from the material just read.

They also sing some songs, and pray some prayers.


The only other public meeting that I have attended is their Memorial of Jesus death (the last supper). That sermon also comes from head office so that every congregation is hearing the same thing. (where is there room for the Spirit in this?) During that meeting the wine and the bread are passed around to every single person, with no one partaking of Christ (unless one claims to be of the anointed, though the entire 'sermon' speaks against he likelihood of that; even suggesting that if someone at the meeting is partaking it may be because they don't know better).

I have never seen another person partake of the body and blood of Christ. I know there are some in the world who do this, and I know there are also some who follow the rule of not partaking, but feel sick to their stomach each year that they say no to Christ. (May such ones - and anyone who wishes - be given the faith and courage to hear and listen to the Spirit and do as He says, even following His voice out of 'her') But I have not seen anyone else partake where I have gone.


So those are the meetings as far as I have seen. I have never seen anyone stand up and disagree. Vocal or public disagreement with the Governing Body and its teachings can (and has) see one marked (bad association) and/or disfellowshipped (shunned by all members, including loved ones).

So, like the clergy project, there are people in the organization who do not believe it is the truth or that the things it states are the truth - but they keep silent so as to maintain their relationships with their families, including aging parents, and children.


For the rest, they believe that their leaders are chosen by God, and so to disagree with them would be to disagree with God's chosen organization, and that would be akin to disagreeing with God Himself. Obedience to the GB and elders is emphasized in some of those magazines as well.



So when OWH, JW, and TS state that they all believe the same thing, this is most likely true. Unfortunately, millions of people can also all believe the same lies. Numbers and unity are not the test of truth. Christ is the Truth, and for one who understands this and wishes to follow Him, everything should be held up and tested against Him.






Peace to you OC, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

I was wondering when a detractor would show up.

OC if you like conflict, don't care for unity and like to be told what you want to hear our detractors have everything you would ever want.

[tam]

Note that timothy does not point out anything untrue, or correct anything I said, from my experience of the meetings, but simply labels me (ad hominem) a 'detractor'. Perhaps also giving a demonstration of my point regarding what occurs when 'disagreeing' with that organization.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Perhaps OC would like to hear from someone who is not a JW but who has attended a few of those meetings?

If so...


The WTBTS (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) is, I believe, the legal name of that religion.

Tract is an important part of the name because they send out Watchtower (and Awake) tracts (magazines) every month. The tract comes from the writing committee and the information contained therein is what JW's read and accept as true.


So at the meeting, an article (or two) from the WT magazine of the month is read by one person from the small stage at the front of the room. Everyone else is sitting and listening. They are all reading word for word from the magazine. Then questions (which questions are also written in the magazine - so that everything is scripted) are asked to the members in the audience. The members then raise their hands and are called upon by the elder to give the answer. They can read directly from the magazine, or they can put the answer from the magazine in their own words, perhaps even give an example of what is written if they have such an example.

So... the article is read, the scripted questions are asked, members are called upon to give the answer from the material just read.

They also sing some songs, and pray some prayers.

tammy

Can anyone imagine someone criticizing a workbook? How many of those did we have in school? Were there not many questions in the workbooks to help us arrive at the answer? Might we call those workbooks "scripted"? I think anyone can see that Tam is trying to sink a ship that is not the enemy. A person's bias can really hinder them in their reasoning.

[onewithhim]

The only other public meeting that I have attended is their Memorial of Jesus death (the last supper). That sermon also comes from head office so that every congregation is hearing the same thing. (where is there room for the Spirit in this?) During that meeting the wine and the bread are passed around to every single person, with no one partaking of Christ (unless one claims to be of the anointed, though the entire 'sermon' speaks against he likelihood of that; even suggesting that if someone at the meeting is partaking it may be because they don't know better).

I have never seen another person partake of the body and blood of Christ. I know there are some in the world who do this, and I know there are also some who follow the rule of not partaking, but feel sick to their stomach each year that they say no to Christ. (May such ones - and anyone who wishes - be given the faith and courage to hear and listen to the Spirit and do as He says, even following His voice out of 'her') But I have not seen anyone else partake where I have gone.


So those are the meetings as far as I have seen. I have never seen anyone stand up and disagree. Vocal or public disagreement with the Governing Body and its teachings can (and has) see one marked (bad association) and/or disfellowshipped (shunned by all members, including loved ones).

So, like the clergy project, there are people in the organization who do not believe it is the truth or that the things it states are the truth - but they keep silent so as to maintain their relationships with their families, including aging parents, and children.


For the rest, they believe that their leaders are chosen by God, and so to disagree with them would be to disagree with God's chosen organization, and that would be akin to disagreeing with God Himself. Obedience to the GB and elders is emphasized in some of those magazines as well.



So when OWH, JW, and TS state that they all believe the same thing, this is most likely true. Unfortunately, millions of people can also all believe the same lies. Numbers and unity are not the test of truth. Christ is the Truth, and for one who understands this and wishes to follow Him, everything should be held up and tested against Him.






Peace to you OC, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You ask, "Where is there room for the Spirit in this?" that is, the already prepared Memorial talk. The Holy Spirit already operated on the brothers that were preparing the talk at Bethel. It is also true that the brother giving the talk at any specific location can put things in his own words and give examples of what he thinks will be helpful. What could be wrong with that? If one wants to criticize something scripted, what about services at, for example, a Catholic church, where everyone kneels and gets up at the exact same time and repeats the same words over and over? But there's nothing wrong with that. It's the JWs that get slammed. And we don't even repeat verbatim what everybody else is saying.

No one "feels sick to their stomach" each year that they "say no to Christ." How odd! If someone thought they were called to go to heaven, they would partake!! There are around 9,000 people presently, world-wide, who partake of the emblems.

Does anyone stand up in the middle of a sermon at YOUR church and disagree? Let's hear about it. Usually out of simple common decency and manners, a person would wait until after the service and then question the speaker.

The ones who disagree and yet stay in the organization will be weeded out by Jesus, after all is said and done. They won't be able to fool people forever.

If we disagree with something about the Governing Body, we know that not
everything they say or do comes directly from God. Even THEY have things to learn. But the basic doctrines are sound, and we have proved those things to ourselves. If a person disagrees with doctrine and yet lies and keeps saying he agrees, what kind of person is that? He is a liar. He is deceitful. If he stays in the organization just because of his family, how does he think he's helping those family members by living a lie, if he thinks HE knows the truth? Wouldn't he make a stand and tell what he thinks is the truth to his family? How does he think they are going to know what the truth is if he doesn't tell them? Do you see what a slippery slope someone who is so untruthful is on?

Everything has been "held up and tested against Christ." And all of us who are truthful and are following "the truth" (as Christ called himself; John 14:6), will not live a lie like the sneaky JWs that you know. How can they lie and call themselves followers of Christ who is "the truth"?

[onewithhim]

Note that timothy does not point out anything untrue, or correct anything I said, from my experience of the meetings, but simply labels me (ad hominem) a 'detractor'. Perhaps also giving a demonstration of my point regarding what occurs when 'disagreeing' with that organization.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

It gets kind of tiring sometimes, when people detract....after they have been reasoned with ad nauseum. Perhaps 2timothy is just pausing to catch his breath after OC has tried to chop Christians to bits.

You will see that I have pointed out everything about where you need to be corrected.

[tam]

Perhaps OC would like to hear from someone who is not a JW but who has attended a few of those meetings?

If so...


The WTBTS (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) is, I believe, the legal name of that religion.

Tract is an important part of the name because they send out Watchtower (and Awake) tracts (magazines) every month. The tract comes from the writing committee and the information contained therein is what JW's read and accept as true.


So at the meeting, an article (or two) from the WT magazine of the month is read by one person from the small stage at the front of the room. Everyone else is sitting and listening. They are all reading word for word from the magazine. Then questions (which questions are also written in the magazine - so that everything is scripted) are asked to the members in the audience. The members then raise their hands and are called upon by the elder to give the answer. They can read directly from the magazine, or they can put the answer from the magazine in their own words, perhaps even give an example of what is written if they have such an example.

So... the article is read, the scripted questions are asked, members are called upon to give the answer from the material just read.

They also sing some songs, and pray some prayers.

tammy

Can anyone imagine someone criticizing a workbook? How many of those did we have in school? Were there not many questions in the workbooks to help us arrive at the answer? Might we call those workbooks "scripted"? I think anyone can see that Tam is trying to sink a ship that is not the enemy. A person's bias can really hinder them in their reasoning.

I merely described the meeting. I did not call it boring. I did not call it bad. I did not give my personal opinion. It is scripted, so my saying so is just speaking truthfully. Yes?


So unless the truth is sinking the ship, why would you take issue with me over my description?


Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

Note that timothy does not point out anything untrue, or correct anything I said, from my experience of the meetings, but simply labels me (ad hominem) a 'detractor'. Perhaps also giving a demonstration of my point regarding what occurs when 'disagreeing' with that organization.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

It gets kind of tiring sometimes, when people detract....after they have been reasoned with ad nauseum. Perhaps 2timothy is just pausing to catch his breath after OC has tried to chop Christians to bits.

You will see that I have pointed out everything about where you need to be corrected.

No worries, I'm not catching my breath. Im just not wasting it.

“Do not give what is holy to dogs nor throw your pearls before swine, so that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open." Matt 7:6

"Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them." - Romans 16:17

Detractors say they are here to help others...we know better.

"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." - 2 John 9

[tam]

The only other public meeting that I have attended is their Memorial of Jesus death (the last supper). That sermon also comes from head office so that every congregation is hearing the same thing. (where is there room for the Spirit in this?) During that meeting the wine and the bread are passed around to every single person, with no one partaking of Christ (unless one claims to be of the anointed, though the entire 'sermon' speaks against he likelihood of that; even suggesting that if someone at the meeting is partaking it may be because they don't know better).

I have never seen another person partake of the body and blood of Christ. I know there are some in the world who do this, and I know there are also some who follow the rule of not partaking, but feel sick to their stomach each year that they say no to Christ. (May such ones - and anyone who wishes - be given the faith and courage to hear and listen to the Spirit and do as He says, even following His voice out of 'her') But I have not seen anyone else partake where I have gone.


So those are the meetings as far as I have seen. I have never seen anyone stand up and disagree. Vocal or public disagreement with the Governing Body and its teachings can (and has) see one marked (bad association) and/or disfellowshipped (shunned by all members, including loved ones).

So, like the clergy project, there are people in the organization who do not believe it is the truth or that the things it states are the truth - but they keep silent so as to maintain their relationships with their families, including aging parents, and children.


For the rest, they believe that their leaders are chosen by God, and so to disagree with them would be to disagree with God's chosen organization, and that would be akin to disagreeing with God Himself. Obedience to the GB and elders is emphasized in some of those magazines as well.



So when OWH, JW, and TS state that they all believe the same thing, this is most likely true. Unfortunately, millions of people can also all believe the same lies. Numbers and unity are not the test of truth. Christ is the Truth, and for one who understands this and wishes to follow Him, everything should be held up and tested against Him.






Peace to you OC, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You ask, "Where is there room for the Spirit in this?" that is, the already prepared Memorial talk. The Holy Spirit already operated on the brothers that were preparing the talk at Bethel.

So you say.

But did Christ not say that we are not to prepare beforehand what we are to say? If we prepare beforehand what we (or in this case, someone else) is going to say (and this includes sermons prepared ahead of time and rehearsed, by pastors and religious leaders in other sects as well), then are we leaving room to go where the Spirit leads us? To speak as the Spirit gives us? Are we trying to confine the Spirit (Christ) to a script or an outline?

It is also true that the brother giving the talk at any specific location can put things in his own words and give examples of what he thinks will be helpful.

Yes, in accordance with the outline.

What could be wrong with that?

I simply said that it was scripted, and asked where, in a scripted talk, where might the Spirit be?

If one wants to criticize something scripted, what about services at, for example, a Catholic church, where everyone kneels and gets up at the exact same time and repeats the same words over and over?

You will note my response above to the scripted sermons as well.

But there's nothing wrong with that. It's the JWs that get slammed.

I did not slam you. I described what your meeting was like. Since we were speaking about your meetings, why would I start describing an RCC service?

And we don't even repeat verbatim what everybody else is saying.

Reading along and repeating words in a tract is not much different than repeating what others are saying.

No one "feels sick to their stomach" each year that they "say no to Christ."

Since I am the one who spoke with (or heard from) a jw (and more than one) who said this very thing, then I don't think that you are in a position to state that it is not true or that they are lying.

How odd! If someone thought they were called to go to heaven, they would partake!! There are around 9,000 people presently, world-wide, who partake of the emblems.

You would think this would be true. But fear of man is strong. Especially in an organization that emphasizes the 'earthly hope' and suggest that those partaking are in error. Especially when that same organization warns that people who partake in error might be partaking unworthily (which is not what Paul meant - CANT be what Paul meant since there was no such thing as an 'earthly hope' versus 'heavenly hope').

Fear, fear, fear... which leads to doubt.

But their denial of Him is still FELT - hence feeling sick each year at that memorial.

Does anyone stand up in the middle of a sermon at YOUR church and disagree?

See now, you accused OC of not paying attention to your posts. You already know that I do not 'go' to a church. The Church is the Body of Christ, of which I am a part.

And anything anyone shares from Christ should be held up to the Light (that is Christ). Sometimes we are called upon to expound the truth more accurately (just as priscilla and aquila did with Apollos)

Let's hear about it. Usually out of simple common decency and manners, a person would wait until after the service and then question the speaker.

Yes that is often true ... but during a question and answer session, why would one not be able to speak as to what they have learned or heard is true instead of what is written as being true from the article?

Like I said, I never heard anyone disagree with anything, and it would appear that you have not either.

The ones who disagree and yet stay in the organization will be weeded out by Jesus, after all is said and done. They won't be able to fool people forever.

Thank you for confirming the truth of what I shared. Disagreement can (and often does) get one "weeded" out. Those not weeded out are told to shun those who are weeded out. Parents their children; children their parents; brothers and sisters and friends.

If they are hiding, and men do not see that they disagree, then according to you,[Jesus] will weed them out later.


Even though the WTS says this to the public (regarding changing your religion):

“No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.�


Yet that is EXACTLY what they DO to their OWN.


There is a word for that: hypocrisy.


That quote is from the July 2009 Awake magazine. I guess that magazine is too old to be fully available on your website. But it is in your online library:

Although the Bible makes a clear distinction between true and false teachings, God allows each person the freedom to choose how he or she will respond. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family. Does study of the Bible lead to family breakup? No. In fact, the Bible encourages a husband and wife who practice different religions to remain together as a family.—1 Corinthians 7:12, 13.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102009251

If we disagree with something about the Governing Body, we know that not
everything they say or do comes directly from God. Even THEY have things to learn. But the basic doctrines are sound, and we have proved those things to ourselves. If a person disagrees with doctrine and yet lies and keeps saying he agrees, what kind of person is that? He is a liar. He is deceitful. If he stays in the organization just because of his family, how does he think he's helping those family members by living a lie, if he thinks HE knows the truth? Wouldn't he make a stand and tell what he thinks is the truth to his family? How does he think they are going to know what the truth is if he doesn't tell them? Do you see what a slippery slope someone who is so untruthful is on?

I can yes. And we are to love Christ FIRST. Otherwise we may remain trapped in the same lie as our loved ones, and we can then do NOTHING to help them come out and come to Christ. Because we ourselves have not done so.


The WTS uses natural love (that a husband, wife, child, parent, brother, sister, etc) has for one another and twists it into a weapon. Using loved ones as a hostage against those who want to leave, but do not want to lose -or abandon- their loved ones.

Everything has been "held up and tested against Christ."

Is that really so? What about when Christ said to His apostles,

Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching THEM to obey EVERYTHING I have commanded YOU.

Is not one of the things that He commanded his apostles to eat and drink of Him, and to keep doing this (eating and drinking) in remembrance of Him?

The WTS says that most should not eat and drink. (I am not going to repeat my earlier post in this thread on the subject)

And all of us who are truthful and are following "the truth" (as Christ called himself; John 14:6), will not live a lie like the sneaky JWs that you know. How can they lie and call themselves followers of Christ who is "the truth"?

And how can you beat them down... when it is your organization that unmercifully holds their loved ones hostage, making them choose between their families and their religion (or faith)? Your organization tells them to remain in the lie ... or be df'd and shunned. Your organization tells YOU to shun anyone who has been 'weeded' out.

Even if that one followed Christ OUT of the organization.


You have no right to speak against them when it is you who takes part in punishing them for choosing Christ.

Hopefully they will see that for what it is - a tactic to keep them from coming to Christ - and instead of giving in to fear, they will come out of 'her', and come TO HIM.

As He and His Bride continue to say to all who wish and all who thirst,

"Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"


Peace to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy