Resurrection, what is it?

[Checkpoint]

We are familiar with the word, and know what it is in a general sense.

Yet when it comes down to it, our views of exactly what it means, what it involves, and why it is promised, vary, probably more than we realise.

That is because how we see it reflects how we see the creation of man, and our ultimate destiny.

What do you think resurrection is, and why is it an essential part of God's plan?

Does it refer to only the body, or to the person? If to the person, in what way?

What about the resurrection of Jesus, is it the same for us as it was for him?

Is the resurrection of the unsaved any different?

Acts 24:15

having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

[Yahu]

The resurrection of the "unsaved" will be the same as most of mankind's resurrection. Only the 144,000 will be resurrected to heaven.

LOL, the 144,000 are Israelites raised up as a witness during the tribulation. 12,000 from each tribe except Dan, but both half tribes. That is absolutely NOT JWs.

The name meanings of each tribe gives a message to the role of those 144,000. Since Dan means judge, it has no part in the message.

No. Most of Revelation is symbolic, and the bit about the tribes of Israel fits right in with that idea, because when John wrote about those 12 tribes in Rev.chapters 7 and 14, those tribes he listed symbolized the Bride of Christ---SPIRITUAL Israel. Do you not know that after Christ was rejected by Israel, the privilege of being God's special people went to the Christian congregation that accepted Jesus? (Matthew 21:43; Matthew 23:37,38; Acts 15:14; I Peter 2:9,10)

This special people, this "holy nation"---the Christian congregation---has been preaching since Jesus went back to heaven. In these last days they have been intensifying the effort. When the Great Tribulation hits, the preaching work will be FINISHED. Jesus said that "the Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in all the earth as a witness to the nations AND THEN THE END WILL COME." (Matt.24:14) That means the end to this old system of things. It will end when the preaching work is DONE. It ends starting with the Great Tribulation. It will be too late to do any more preaching. So what use is it for the 12 tribes of Israel to begin preaching during the Tribulation??? What will they preach??? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are even 144,000 Jews that believe that Christ is the Messiah......if there are, are they preaching about him NOW? If not, why not? And if they ARE, then what is the point of starting up preaching during the Great Trib, since they have already been preaching???

I wait for you elaboration.

The 144,000 are all VIRGINS and all male. It specifically states that they have never known women.

They are also all of tribes of Israel because the church is already gone. The tribulation deals once again with Israel while the church has already been taken out of the picture. No one already Christian goes into the tribulation. New ones are raised up during the tribulation.

The two witnessed in Jerusalem are most likely IMO Elijah and Enoch as the only two men caught up during their life and have yet to have their physical die.

The tribulation is back to the last week of Daniels prophecy and it ALL deals with Israel.

Unless you are a male Jewish virgin, you can't qualify as one of the 144,000.

[Checkpoint]

Yes, but I find your position is somewhat contradictory, in that you take the number 144,000 literally while taking the same ones "of Israel" spiritually or metaphorically.

One is not taken literally, the other is.

Why?

If I may be so bold as to interject a thought.

There is no "all or nothing rule stated in Scripture", so why impose that in the book of Revelation?

John introduces the book stating that he (John) was on the Island of Patmos, there is no reason to presume that that wasn't literal, but he goes on to say he saw Jesus with a sword coming out of his mouth: Symbolic. Even the lirteral numbers are mixed with symbolism: Jesus is always depicted in the singular (one) but that (one) individual is depicted as a lamb (figurative).

Although there is indeed very little that should be taken literally, it seems evident that the number, reflecting as it does, other aspects in scripture (the literal 12 Apostles, the literal 12 tribes of Israel) is not without significance.

The number 144,000 is indeed not without significance.

That is one of several reasons why it is not intended to be taken literally, in my opinion.

It is 10x10x10 multiplied by 12x12.

I checked the net and found this explanation to be a good one.

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/ke ... evelation/

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, and I couldn't have said it better. I reasoned that way myself, that the number of tribes of Israel is literal, and the 12 Apostles is literal (Revelation 21:12,14). So why not 12,000 X 12,000?

144,000 is not 12,000 X 12,000!

It is 12x12 multiplied by 10x10x10.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 33 by Checkpoint]


No, Revelation states specifinally how the total was come to, so I think not.


JW

[Talishi]

The 144,000 are all VIRGINS and all male. It specifically states that they have never known women. They are also all of tribes of Israel because the church is already gone... Unless you are a male Jewish virgin, you can't qualify as one of the 144,000.

Are there even 144,000 virgins on the entire planet Earth? There are a lot of Catholic priests who have never known women (boys are not women), too bad they don't qualify under the Jewish clause, because they'd be perfect material for heavenly witnesses. So holy.

[onewithhim]

The resurrection of the "unsaved" will be the same as most of mankind's resurrection. Only the 144,000 will be resurrected to heaven.

LOL, the 144,000 are Israelites raised up as a witness during the tribulation. 12,000 from each tribe except Dan, but both half tribes. That is absolutely NOT JWs.

The name meanings of each tribe gives a message to the role of those 144,000. Since Dan means judge, it has no part in the message.

No. Most of Revelation is symbolic, and the bit about the tribes of Israel fits right in with that idea, because when John wrote about those 12 tribes in Rev.chapters 7 and 14, those tribes he listed symbolized the Bride of Christ---SPIRITUAL Israel. Do you not know that after Christ was rejected by Israel, the privilege of being God's special people went to the Christian congregation that accepted Jesus? (Matthew 21:43; Matthew 23:37,38; Acts 15:14; I Peter 2:9,10)

This special people, this "holy nation"---the Christian congregation---has been preaching since Jesus went back to heaven. In these last days they have been intensifying the effort. When the Great Tribulation hits, the preaching work will be FINISHED. Jesus said that "the Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in all the earth as a witness to the nations AND THEN THE END WILL COME." (Matt.24:14) That means the end to this old system of things. It will end when the preaching work is DONE. It ends starting with the Great Tribulation. It will be too late to do any more preaching. So what use is it for the 12 tribes of Israel to begin preaching during the Tribulation??? What will they preach??? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are even 144,000 Jews that believe that Christ is the Messiah......if there are, are they preaching about him NOW? If not, why not? And if they ARE, then what is the point of starting up preaching during the Great Trib, since they have already been preaching???

I wait for you elaboration.

The 144,000 are all VIRGINS and all male. It specifically states that they have never known women.

They are also all of tribes of Israel because the church is already gone. The tribulation deals once again with Israel while the church has already been taken out of the picture. No one already Christian goes into the tribulation. New ones are raised up during the tribulation.

The two witnessed in Jerusalem are most likely IMO Elijah and Enoch as the only two men caught up during their life and have yet to have their physical die.

The tribulation is back to the last week of Daniels prophecy and it ALL deals with Israel.

Unless you are a male Jewish virgin, you can't qualify as one of the 144,000.

The "virgins" are metaphorical for the fact that the 144,000 co-rulers with Christ are SPIRITUALLY PURE. They have not defiled themselves with committing spiritual adultery....with accepting lies about God.

There are examples of many faithful women in the N.T., all of which will rule with Christ (if they lived when he was killed & resurrected). There is no indication anywhere that they would not be included in the ruling class. Paul never said "Dorcas was a wonderful woman, but only men will rule with Christ," or anything that hints of such a thing.

The church will be gone when the G.T. hits, but the millions left on Earth that are followers of Christ will still be here. If the tribes of Israel have not already turned to belief in Christ as the Messiah, they will be dealt with individually (and they will be in a precarious position), and those with any kind of goodness toward Jehovah will perhaps be spared and go into the new system of things where they will learn about Him and His Christ.

Who are the "new ones that will be raised up during the Great Tribulation"?

You didn't answer my questions. What you say is very hazy.

1) Why will anyone be preaching during the G.T. when it is NOW that the preaching work is being done?

2) Why aren't these "new ones," whoever they are, preaching NOW? Why wait until the G.T.?

3) Why would the G.T. have started when the preaching work was not finished?

4) We know that at least some of the Apostles were married (Peter for sure), and yet Jesus told them they would rule with him. So how can it be that only male Jewish virgins will be part of the 144,000?


Can you answer these few questions?[/i]

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, and I couldn't have said it better. I reasoned that way myself, that the number of tribes of Israel is literal, and the 12 Apostles is literal (Revelation 21:12,14). So why not 12,000 X 12,000?

144,000 is not 12,000 X 12,000!

It is 12x12 multiplied by 10x10x10.

My silly mistake. Of course it's 12,000 X 12. The point is, the number 12 is literal in places in Revelation. Therefore we consider it assuredly possible that 12,000 X 12 is literal also.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 2 by onewithhim]

Mankind's ultimate destiny has always been life on Earth in paradise conditions.

I wonder where onewithhim might have got that notion from?
Any ideas?

onewithhim I think, is ignoring me, but maybe some other Christian might want to help me out with some scripture.

Thanks.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 2 by onewithhim]

Mankind's ultimate destiny has always been life on Earth in paradise conditions.

I wonder where onewithhim might have got that notion from?
Any ideas?

onewithhim I think, is ignoring me, but maybe some other Christian might want to help me out with some scripture.

Thanks.

She gets it from a number of verses.

To find her take, her quotes of those, you would need to work through her posts.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 28 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, and I couldn't have said it better. I reasoned that way myself, that the number of tribes of Israel is literal, and the 12 Apostles is literal (Revelation 21:12,14). So why not 12,000 X 12,000?

144,000 is not 12,000 X 12,000!

It is 12x12 multiplied by 10x10x10.

Or 12x12,000 as stated.