The 144,000

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Checkpoint
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The 144,000

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

A question that is often debated, and it seems there are more that the usual two opinions or schools of thought.

The 144,000 are a group that is described in Revelation 7 and 14.

As we know, Revelation is itself a controversial book, largely because of its style and the language it uses.

Language that is sometimes literal and sometimes figurative or metaphorical. It is hard to know which best fits what is being portrayed.

Some see the 144,000 as being a literal number to be taken as literal Israelites.

Others see them as a symbolic number, and as being spiritual Israelites, meaning they are believers both Jew and Gentile.

Yet others have concluded that they are literally 144,000 yet they are not literal but spiritual Israelites.

What is your take, and why do you think that?
Revelation 7:

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Revelation 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
Last edited by Checkpoint on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #11

Post by 2timothy316 »

Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

JW
Yes, but why when they take the total number literally?
It's in the context of Revelation. First, the question must be asked. Are the groups spoken of in Rev 7:4 (144,000) and 7:9 (Great Crowd) the same group? Reading Revelation 7:4-9 it is quite clear these are different groups. One is sealed, one is not, one has a number with it yet the other can't be numbered. The only conclusion can be is that the 144,000 is a literal number. Not all numbers found in Revelation are symbolic. Like in Rev 21:14 (names of the 12 apostles) and Rev 20:3, 5-7 (1000 year reign).

If the number 144,000 was symbolic the Bible would associate it with something. Like the number 666 is linked to the beast. The Bible explains these numbers. Yet for the 144,000 there is no explanation except in places like Luke 12:32; 22:29 with the term little flock which would be 'little' in size compared to an uncountable number as in the 'other sheep' that are not of the little flock. (John 10:16)
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The 144,00

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

JW
Yes, but why when they take the total number literally?
Question: If the book of Revelation is highly symbolic, what basis is there for taking the 144,000 as a literal number?

While by far the majority of things in Revelation are indeed symbolic, but there is no "all or nothing" rule outlined in the bible or in that book, that dictates that nothing can be literal therein. The mixing of both the literal and the figurative is evident in the fact that John says he (John) was on the Island of Patmos (which is generally understood to be literal) and yet says he saw Jesus with a sword coming out of his mouth (figurative). Further, Jesus and Jehovah are always depicted in the singular (one) but while the singular number is literal the depiction (for example of Jesus as a Lamb) is figurative.

Further indication that the number should be taken literaly is that the number is not without significance in scripture. Jesus took care to choose 12 (literal) Apostles, specifically choosing to repeat the number in his promise that they would "sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes" in the future. Those same Apostles (after the apostasy of Judas) were evidently aware of the need to preserve their number at 12 by choosing a replacement for him (Judas) and the number in Revelation is presented specifically as being 12 x 12,000.

Even if the number *is* figurative, it is still an extremely tiny number in comparison to the total number of sincere Christians throughout the ages and that small select are presented as being in a unique and special position regarding Jesus. So figurative or literal we come to a similar conclusion, a distinct and specific group with special privileges.

Still, given the historical and contextual evidence it does not seem beyond the realm of reason that the number is significant and should indeed be taken literally.




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HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000
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Post #13

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 6 by tam]
Peace to you and to yours,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Thanks tammy.

Blessings to and to those you care for.

Thanks too for sharing your understanding.

Why, do you think, the number was set at 144,000?

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Re: The 144,00

Post #14

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

JW
But "spirit begotten born again Christians" number far more than a mere 144,000!

So who do JWs say are these "spiritual Israelites"?

And what of the many other Christians who are born again?

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Re: The 144,00

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote:
But "spirit begotten born again Christians" number far more than a mere 144,000!
That is a matter of opinion.
Checkpoint wrote:So who do JWs say are these "spiritual Israelites"?
Sincere Christians throughout the ages that were chosen by God to have that special privilege. Nobody can say for sure, and I certainly cannot name them all, but we know that the first were the 120 Christians in Pentecost.
Checkpoint wrote:And what of the many other Christians who are born again?
Do you mean the man other Christians that are NOT born again? They will have the hope of living forever in paradise. I count myself as one that holds that hope.

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Post #16

Post by Checkpoint »

Witness2U wrote: [Replying to post 6 by tam]

Most people who read the Bible are not born of God yet. They think all the numbers written in the Bible are literal numbers and that's why they come up with the wildest end time predictions I've ever heard.
It seems to me you are saying anyone who takes Bible numbers literally is not yet born of God.

Or have I misunderstood you on this?

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Re: The 144,00

Post #17

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 10 by marco]
marco wrote:Is rule the right word? There are no other beings over whom to rule but I suppose sovereignty over grass and trees can be called ruling. What has poor Jesus become but a gardener?

Obviously, the number 144 with three zeroes added is a dramatic invention. It would be stretching generosity too far to concede that it might be figurative (unless one were fond of puns).
Thanks for taking the time to read.
At least you were noble enough to do more than what it would have been expected the other individual would have.

You probably missed these parts:
After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.� This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming “great tribulation,� which will destroy the present wicked world.—Revelation 7:9, 14.
(Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.
Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God.—Psalm 37:29
.

The great crowd or multitude is unnumbered. These are the earthly subjects of the kingdom rule.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #18

Post by tam »

Thank you for your blessing and peace again to you and yours,
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 6 by tam]
Peace to you and to yours,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Thanks tammy.

Blessings to and to those you care for.

Thanks too for sharing your understanding.

Why, do you think, the number was set at 144,000?
12 000 each from 12 tribes = 144 000.

I was about to say I did not know why that number specifically... but my Lord has reminded me of a couple of things. First, remember that He did tell his 12 apostles that they would be ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel. So that accounts for the 12 tribes.


If you look at the design of the city (of New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ) there are 12 gates (on each gate is written a tribe of Israel). (Rev 21:9-27) The wall of the city has twelve foundations (and on them were the names of the 12 apostles of the lamb), and also the wall is 144 cubits thick (I don't know what a cubit is, but that is the number).

I was not sure why each 12 is multiplied by a thousand each time, to make 144 000. Except perhaps because of the great blessing that God has bestowed upon them.

Deuteronomy 1:11

May [the LORD], the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!


**

A set number doesn't mean no one else from that tribe can be called and chosen - but anyone more than this set number would be counted as a part of the Great Crowd (from every tribe, nation, people and tongue).


John saw 144 000 of Israel being sealed, ensuring him (and us and them) that God has reserved a remnant from their number AND that the four winds could not be released until they had all been sealed (which means that at least have to all be born) So that Israel - due to the promises to the patriarchs - will be among those anointed and part of the new covenant with Christ, along with the rest of the Great Crowd.


**

The following is not addressed to you specifically Checkpoint, but just in general:

The Great Crowd is in the same place as the 144 000, and they are also kings and priests with Christ. The Great Crowd is:

"before the throne of God" and "serve Him day and night IN HIS TEMPLE" (Rev 7:15)


And earlier in Chapter 5:

They sang a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, (exactly the same as the great crowd is described)
and you have made us kings and priests to our God
and we will reign on earth."


The evidence that this is referring to the great crowd and not just the 144 000 (as the WTS states in error) is in the description of these ones who are kings and priests - the description does not state that these are just those from the 12 tribes of Israel; but from EVERY tribe, nation, tongue and people (exactly what the Great Crowd is described as being at Rev 7:9).


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: The 144,00

Post #19

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

JW
Yes, but why when they take the total number literally?
I thought we had discussed this before on another thread. It was said that 144,000 is taken literally because the number 12 is literal in Revelation (see Revelation 21:12 & 14).

144,000 is 12 x 12,000, is it not? It is a multiple of 12. Why not take it literally if "12" is clearly literal?


:-|

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Re: The 144,00

Post #20

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Jehovah's Witness take on it is that they are spiritual Israelites, spirit begotten born again Christians.

JW
But "spirit begotten born again Christians" number far more than a mere 144,000!

So who do JWs say are these "spiritual Israelites"?

And what of the many other Christians who are born again?
Here is where I start wondering if "Checkpoint" actually posts everything himself that is supposed to come from "Checkpoint." If I recall correctly, we have discussed this quite thoroughly in previous threads. I wonder why "Checkpoint" would feel the need to bring these (thoroughly discussed) things up again.

There are NOT more than 144,000 spiritual Israelites. Spiritual Israel consists of all anointed Christians since Jesus was on the earth. It started out with Jesus' Apostles and then at Pentacost of 33 A.D. many more were added. All of Jesus' followers afterward were "born-again," anointed men and women. Any kind of count was lost when the great apostasy took over most everything that claimed to be Christian. From the 2nd century on, Christ's true disciples were overwhelmed by false Christians---weeds growing amongst the "wheat," that outnumbered the true followers of Christ. This was all foretold by Christ and his Apostles.

1) Please read Matthew 13: 24-30, 36-43.

2) "I know that after my [Paul's] going away [death] oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:29,30)

3) "There also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive heresies and will disown even the owner that bought them....Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words." (2 Peter 2:1-3)


We have seen these warnings to have been fulfilled in the enormous empire of false Christianity that claims to represent Christ. But their real nature is evident by the fruit, or, works, that are produced. (Matthew 7: 13-16)

So....according to Christ and his true disciples, the majority of those claiming to be his followers are NOT (Matt.7:14), and if you read the parable of the Wheat and the Weeds in Matthew chapter 13, you can see that his true followers would become evident in the "harvest time," or, the last days, which we are living in now. Up to this point, and especially since around 1935, the number of anointed chosen ones started to dwindle. The number of Christians who realized that they had a real hope of living on Earth in paradise conditions grew, and today they number over 8 million (as compared to around 9,000 anointed on Earth today).

Taking all of this into consideration, it is very reasonable to conclude that 144,000 born-again, anointed, chosen ones is a literal number, and that this is all that Jehovah planned to be co-rulers with his Son in heaven. BILLIONS of humans will be living on this beautiful planet forever.


Checkpoint, come back! :D

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