Serious Research?

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:32 pm

Hoghead1 wrote in post 148 of â€œWhat is a soul?â€�

FYI: [A] I've done some serious research on the NWT, which is precisely why I say it is bogus. For one thing, the translators are kept secret. this is the only translation of teh Bible I have ever found where nobody wants to reveal who the translators were. [C]More importantly, the text, key points, has been unduly corrupted to suit the biases of teh WatchTower Society. For example, in the prologue to JN. the indefinite article "a" is inserted, so that the text is mistranslated as "and the Word was a God." The rules of Greek grammar rule out the use of teh indefinite article here, which is why it is absent in the solid, standard translations. The reason why the WatchTower Society want the "a" in there is that this will support their anti-Trinitarian bias. [D]Also, in passages that speak of Hell and torment, the NWT reads "annihilation." That was done to bludgeon Scripture to fit their bias about the afterlife. It is one thing to disagree with Scripture. I respect that. it is quite another to corrupt the translation so that it agree with your position. [E]Also, "Jehovah" is a serious mistranslation. And that is Hebrew 101 material. So I feel I have very good reason to write off the NWT as bogus and corrupt.

I intend to discuss the individual parts (A-E) of the above.

Iâ€™ll save part A for last.

B. You wrote:

â€œFor one thing, the translators are kept secret. this is the only translation of teh [sic] Bible I have ever found where nobody wants to reveal who the translators were.â€�

For the first 30 years at least, the publishers of the NASB kept their translators anonymous:

â€œThe Fourfold Aim of The Lockman Foundation
1.These publications shall be true to the original Hebrew and Greek.
2. They shall be grammatically correct.
3. They shall be understandable to the masses.
4. They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; no work will ever be personalized.â€� - page v., NASB, Ref. Ed., Lockman Foundation, 1971.

â€œFor many years the names of the NASB translators and editors were withheld by the publisher. But in 1995 this information was finally disclosed.â€� - http://www.bible-researcher.com/nasb.html

Bible translations of the OT and NT texts should be judged according to their accuracy - not the person(s) who did the translation.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:48 pm

dakoski wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Jesus is never called JEHOVAH in the bible. Only Almighty God is called by the Divine Name YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh)

Jehovah's Witnesses have no problem recognizing Jesus as "a god", he is called such in Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1c
Who then is called Jehovah in Exodus 33:11 'The Lord [Jehovah] would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.' ? It can't be the Father (John 1:18).

QUESTION: But did Moses not see God's face?

Not literally, no, the bible sometimes refers to angels as being 'Jehovah' in the sense that they are his representatives. The disciple Steven explains that "the Law as transmitted [to Moses] by angels.â€� and says "Moses was â€œwith the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai.â€� (Acts 7:53).

Exodus 3:4, 6 â€œGod called unto him out of the midst of the bush... â€œ
Exodus 3: 2 â€œthe angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bushâ€�.

To illustrate, we might read the headline "Obama offers olive Branch to Moscow" but in reality it was perhaps The Secretary of State Clinton that literally visited Moscow and spoke to Putaine. So why does it say Obama, when it was not Obama that went to Russia? Because whoever he sent REPRESENTS him (Obama) and what he or she says is what the President wants her to say

So, when Deuteronomy 34:10 speaks of â€œMoses, whom Jehovah knew face to face,â€� it does not mean that Moses saw Jehovahâ€™s very own face or person and should not be taken literally. It is a figurative or idiomatic expression that he merely had personal audience with God (by means of angels); JACOB (Genesis 26:2) - "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." GEN 32:30

Jacob actually wrestled with and angel as comfirmed at Hosea 12v4. This is implied by the fact that, contrary to the Creator who revealed his personal name as YHWH, the "man" (angel) refused to declare his personal name. Jacob refered to the angel as "God" in that the angel represented God (further details see above)

IDIOMATIC EXPRESSION

The English expression "face to face" is translated from a Hebrew idiom; paniym (Heb "face"), and means the presence; the word can thus be translated in a number of ways including
- presence, person
- before and behind, toward, in front of,
- forward, formerly, from beforetime, before

It does not have to literally refer to a person's face; the expression in Exodus, denotes intimate two-way conversation. (Even in english the we use the term "face" to refer to things OTHER than someone's literal face (face of the earth, to fall on your face, to have egg on your face, to face an issue, etc)).

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GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE TRINITY

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:52 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
dakoski wrote:So if Jesus is called both Elohim and Jehovah in the Bible - why do you refuse to call him either?
Jesus is never called JEHOVAH in the bible. Only Almighty God is called by the Divine Name YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh)

Jehovah's Witnesses have no problem recognizing Jesus as "a god", he is called such in Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1c
In Exodus 4:16 Moses served as God (Elohim) to Aaron.

"He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him."

So the title god can be given to anyone or anything with mighty power. Moses was 'a god' so too Jesus is 'a god'. In Philippians 3:19 even a person's belly can be 'a god' (theos). However, as JW pointed out there is only One Almighty God.

Exodus 4:16

He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.

This is a nice attempt but its not referring to Moses as Elohim - in the way theos is used of Jesus in John 1:1. A little closer reading identifies the 'as if' clause - i.e. he's using an analogy. The NWT and as far as I'm aware all translations take it that way that Jehovah is using an analogy. Whereas Theos is not used as an analogy in John 1:1.

Philippians 3:19 - I've already agreed there are many verses in the Bible where theos/elohim is used to describe an idol. This only works as a parallel to John 1:1 if you think John is saying Jesus is a false god.

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:28 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
dakoski wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Jesus is never called JEHOVAH in the bible. Only Almighty God is called by the Divine Name YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh)

Jehovah's Witnesses have no problem recognizing Jesus as "a god", he is called such in Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1c
Who then is called Jehovah in Exodus 33:11 'The Lord [Jehovah] would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.' ? It can't be the Father (John 1:18).
QUESTION: But did Moses not see God's face?

Not literally, no, the bible sometimes refers to angels as being 'Jehovah' in the sense that they are his representatives. The disciple Steven explains that "the Law as transmitted [to Moses] by angels.â€� and says "Moses was â€œwith the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai.â€� (Acts 7:53).

Exodus 3:4, 6 â€œGod called unto him out of the midst of the bush... â€œ
Exodus 3: 2 â€œthe angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bushâ€�.

To illustrate, we might read the headline "Obama offers olive Branch to Moscow" but in reality it was perhaps The Secretary of State Clinton that literally visited Moscow and spoke to Putaine. So why does it say Obama, when it was not Obama that went to Russia? Because whoever he sent REPRESENTS him (Obama) and what he or she says is what the President wants her to say
So, when Deuteronomy 34:10 speaks of â€œMoses, whom Jehovah knew face to face,â€� it does not mean that Moses saw Jehovahâ€™s very own face or person and should not be taken literally. It is a figurative or idiomatic expression that he merely had personal audience with God (by means of angels)

ANGELS REPRESENTING GOD

JACOB (Genesis 26:2) - "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." GEN 32:30

Jacob actually wrestled with and angel as comfirmed at Hosea 12v4. This is implied by the fact that, contrary to the Creator who revealed his personal name as YHWH, the "man" (angel) refused to declare his personal name. Jacob refered to the angel as "God" in that the angel represented God (further details see above)

IDIOMATIC EXPRESSION

The English expression "face to face" is translated from a Hebrew idiom; paniym (Heb "face"), and means the presence; the word can thus be translated in a number of ways including
- presence, person
- before and behind, toward, in front of,
- forward, formerly, from beforetime, before

It does not have to literally refer to a person's face; the expression in Exodus, denotes intimate two-way conversation.

Even in english the we use the term "face" to refer to things OTHER than someone's literal face (face of the earth, to fall on your face, to have egg on your face, to face an issue, etc).

The problem I have with this interpretation is that you're perfectly willing to interpret face as face in v20 but refuse to do so in v11. You give no reason why you think v11 is an idiom other than in contradicts your doctrine.

Does the passage give an indication that an idiom is being used? I think the narrator is very careful to make sure there is no ambiguity - 'face to face as a man speaks with his friend' really leaves little room that this is a spiritual apparition. I can't think how it could be made any clearer.

Further v11 and v20 deliberately use the same Hebrew word for face to make that juxtaposition of Jehovah who may be seen face to face and another person also referred to as Jehovah who may not.

If we're going to be consistent with interpreting face as an idiom - does v20 'Moses may not see the face of Jehovah' mean Moses may not have any meaningful two way dialogue with Jehovah. Of course it doesn't mean that - it means Moses may not literally see the face of Jehovah.

If v20 is using the word face literally why would the same word be used in v11 as an idiom? The narrator would have to be a pretty inept writer to make that choice of wording. Particularly as v11 is part of a preface to Moses encounter with Jehovah who may not be seen face to face.

The only rationale I can see is that v20 fits with your doctrine and v11 doesn't so must be interpreted as idiom. Such a method doesn't really leave any room for the Bible to shape or test your doctrine - as the Bible's content is then 100% malleable. Anything that contradicts your doctrine can be written off as idiom.

hoghead1 · Post by **hoghead1** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:35 pm

[Replying to post 196 by tigger2]

Your post is essentially a personal attack, which is totally inappropriate in this discussion group.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:51 am

dakoski wrote: The problem I have with this interpretation is that you're perfectly willing to interpret face as face in v20 but refuse to do so in v11. You give no reason why you think v11 is an idiom other than in contradicts your doctrine.

Actually both are interpreted non-literally as Jehovah doesn't literally have a physical "face" at all. Face is a word when taken literally to describe a part of a human body and God doesn't have a human body.

God is a spirit and has a spirit body, whatever he has to express his emotions and contain the center of his thoughts (which is the equivalent of our brain/head) it isn't fronted by a nose, eyes, chin mouth etc. ie it isn't a "face" in its most literal basic meaning. The bible uses certain anthropomorphic expressions to help us to understand and appreciate things about himself. So both expressions "face to face" in verse 11 and God's "you cannot see my face" are actually employing the word "face" figuratively, the latter to mean my person, me (God) YHWH. The only difference is one is an idiomatic expression (an expression whose meaning is not predictable from the usual meanings of its constituent elements)and one is an anthropomorphic expression (ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things).

Even in everyday modern usgage the word "face" as I pointed out in my original post (post #198 ), is often used figuratevely and indeed the hebrew for face "paniym" is employed in countless idiomatic expressions in scripture and translated in a variety of ways.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:55 am

dakoski wrote:
Does the passage give an indication that an idiom is being used? I think the narrator is very careful to make sure there is no ambiguity - 'face to face as a man speaks with his friend' really leaves little room that this is a spiritual apparition. I can't think how it could be made any clearer.

What do you mean by "spiritual apparition"? What is your interpretation of Moses' experience? You say the passage is clear, what "clearly" does it mean?

JW

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:19 am

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Actually both are interpreted non-literally as Jehovah doesn't literally have a physical "face" at all. Face is a word when taken literally to describe a part of a human body and God doesn't have a human body.

God is a spirit and has a spirit body, whatever he has to express his emotions and contain the center of his thoughts (which is the equivalent of our brain/head) it isn't fronted by a nose, eyes, chin mouth etc. ie it isn't a "face" in its most literal basic meaning. The bible uses certain anthropomorphic expressions to help us to understand and appreciate things about himself. So both expressions "face to face" in verse 11 and God's "you cannot see my face" are actually employing the word "face" figuratively, the latter to mean my person, me (God) YHWH. The only difference is one is an idiomatic expression (an expression whose meaning is not predictable from the usual meanings of its constituent elements)and one is an anthropomorphic expression (ascribing human characteristics to nonhuman things).

Even in everyday modern usgage the word "face" as I pointed out in my original post (post #198 ), is often used figuratevely and indeed the hebrew for face "paniym" is employed in countless idiomatic expressions in scripture and translated in a variety of ways.

Interpreting Exodus 33:11 and 20:

Ok if paniym is being used figurately in v11 and v20 - what is the meaning of the Hebrew word in this context? I.e. what's the authors intention in these verses?

From what I can discern from your response above is that you think v20 is referring to Jehovah's 'spirit body'? Ok I can agree with that - then is not paniym also being used that way in v11? If so, then its saying then there is a person called Jehovah who Moses has seen but there is another person also called Jehovah who Moses cannot see and live. If not, what is the exegetical basis for interpreting paniym in v11 differently?

Given that the consequences of Moses or other Israelites misinterpreting this passage was death, I'm going to assume the meaning of the passage is clear. Otherwise frankly the author is guilty of gross negligence.

Another similar passage

Yes I do agree there are many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures where one sent by Jehovah (the angel of Jehovah) is also referred to as Jehovah. Indeed one of Jesus' most common phrases is that he is sent by the Father - so it appears that Jesus is identifying himself as the one who is termed Jehovah in the Hebrew Scriptures who speaks face to face with his people (John 1:18).

Of course, there are others sent by Jehovah who aren't called Jehovah. In addition, all the prophets are sent and speak on behalf of Jehovah but none are called Jehovah.

I like Genesis 18-19 as a way of distinguishing Jehovah who reveals himself face to face to Abraham from other angels:
v1-2 'Afterward, Jehovah+ appeared to him among the big trees of MamÊ¹re+ while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day.'He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him.+ When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground.'

-We hear three people come to visit Abraham, v5-8 he washes their feet and gives them something to eat.

-v22 says that the men left but Jehovah stayed with Abraham.
'Then the men left from there and went toward SodÊ¹om, but Jehovah+ remained with Abraham'

-19:1 clarifies that two of the three who had appeared to Abraham left to go to Sodom are angels. Whereas the third person who stays with Abraham (18:22) is Jehovah.
'The two angels arrived at SodÊ¹om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of SodÊ¹om. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth'

-19:24 Jehovah then leaves Abraham to go to Sodom and rains down sulphur from Jehovah in the heavens.
'Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven' (NASB)

This is a nice passage as it distinguishes:
- the angel of Jehovah who speaks face to face with man from others angels not given the title Jehovah (18:22 and 19:1)
-also the angel of Jehovah who speaks with Abraham and goes down to Sodom to destroy it is distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens (19:24).

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:35 am

[Replying to post 203 by JehovahsWitness]

What do you mean by "spiritual apparition"? What is your interpretation of Moses' experience? You say the passage is clear, what "clearly" does it mean?

JW

I was attempting to understand your intepretation - which wasn't clear. On the other hand the passage is perfectly clear. I've explained it above but here's a summary.

There is a preface in Exodus 33:7-11 which talks about Moses regular experience of speaking to Jehovah as a man speaks with one of his friends. If you think that conveys speaking with someone you have never seen - I would say such an interpretation would make no sense to someone in that period of history who didn't know about telephones, facebook, skype etc.

Exodus 33:12-22 is a particular dialogue between Moses and a person called Jehovah who is clearly different from the person Jehovah who he spoke with regularly and the dialogue continues onto Chapter 34. The point of the passage I think is that Jehovah who Moses speaks with as a man speaks with his friend reveals Jehovah in the heavens who Moses may not see. Which is the same message as John 1:18. So Exodus 33:12-22 and onto 34 is where the Father is confirming the Son's revelation of him in a similar way as the Father affirms the Son's message at his baptism and transfiguration.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:17 pm

[Replying to post 205 by dakoski]

I think you misunderstood my questions

1) what (in your opinion) does the expression "face to face" mean?

2) What does "you cannot see my face" mean?

3) What is "a spirit aparition" (your expression)?

4) Who, if anyone (in your opinion) did Moses see?

JW

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:38 pm

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I think you misunderstood my questions

1) what (in your opinion) does the expression "face to face" mean?

2) What does "you cannot see my face" mean?

3) What is "a spirit aparition" (your expression)?

4) Who, if anyone (in your opinion) did Moses see?

I've answered all these questions above. For clarity and brevity I will summarise below:
1) to see some one

2) cannot see them

3) As I said above, I was trying to understand how you interpret face to face to mean? Rather than demand I explain what I think you mean - I'd rather you clarify what you mean - its more productive. 'Spiritual apparition' is not how I interpret it so my definition of the term is inconsequential - I'd rather you use your own terms.

4) Moses saw Jesus I think - that's what I think John 1:18 means.