Has man really fallen?

[marco]

In discussion I frequently hear that I've fallen though, indeed, I didn't experience any fall. Paul says:

Romans 3:23, “For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.�

Romans 3:10 “There is NONE righteous, No NOT ONE.� We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners."


(i) We read that Adam, constructed perfect, managed to be imperfect. Is it good or bad to tell people they are all sinners?

(ii) Do we "sin because we are sinners"? Does what Paul says make sense?

[ttruscott]

I'm pretty sure Paul didn't endorse your theology about everything happening before we physically existed.

In light of Job 38:7 where the Sons of GOD all sang HIS praise when they witnessed the creation of the physical world proving at least some people were around to see it, Paul's method of telling the reprobate that they had no excuse for not believing in YHWH is to remind them of the creation that happened before their eyes as the proof of HIS divinity and HIS power...in such a way that to describe the revelation as a study of nature as proving YHWH to anyone without any further evidence is absolutely without any historical precedent - no contemplation of nature has ever taught anyone of the divine attributes of YHWH, it has never happened - and is only clutched by the orthodox to save them from admitting the implication that we saw the proof when it happened which destroys their created on earth theologies which makes their religion and churches viable.

Thus the harder to parse verses in Paul open up to become easier when approached from the pov that this verse tells us that without a doubt Paul believed in our pre-existence.

I have not the slightest understanding of it and it seems that our position here after those pre-existence choices is a pointless exercise, void, for some of us, of all hope.

Indeed. Some ignorance is bliss. But as sure as it destroys hope (do you not think that, from the Bible's pov, the demons already know they are without hope?) it affirms with great logical exactitude that the hope of the sinful elect is assured?
I think the greater service it does is that it explains why some do not have any hope and no one is blamed but themselves... The great anger and war against Christians in the end days might certainly be based upon the revelation of the certainty of no hope for those humans outside of Chirst though that has been the message all along.

[catnip]

I don’t think telling the truth is bad. If people are really sinners, then I don’t think it is bad to say it. Why would it be?

If we look at Gandhi and say: What a sinner! - then we are being absurd. He is of course human and can make a mistake with his change or in burning the toast. But a person is defined by the WAY he/ she lives their life. And he did pretty well for a simple human. So we would call him righteous, despite Paul. Jews call Oskar Schindler a righteous man.

Choosing to see bad in people rather than good is a horrible way of evaluating things and a theology that springs from that negative assessment cannot, I think, be a good one. As a little boy I was more conscious, from my religious upbringing, about how bad I was rather than aware of any good points. I prayed earnestly to be made better. I now see this as terribly sad.

Oh my gosh! How terribly sad.

As I recall, when God created Adam he said he was good. And evidence is supposed to show that God loves us--so we can't be all bad. God is cast as our Heavenly Father, acknowledged as our Creator--if that is the case, then thinking he created us flawed in order to despise the flaws he created is strange.

Perhaps the problem is in how we look at sin. The Jews simply considered it missing the mark as in shooting an arrow and missing the bullseye. But we obviously want to be good and we do try.

I have never agreed with any of the doctrines of Original Sin. They all say that God made a mistake in our creation at some level. I don't think so. And I think a focus on sin is detrimental.

When the Prodigal Son returns to the Father, he simply does that. In the story, when he returned he was bereft of all worldly goods and had wasted his inheritance and that is the condition he was in--not expecting his Father's favor, but hoping he could work for him and earn his food like a common laborer.
Conversely, the older brother who never left his Father is shown despising his younger brother and does not understand his Father's favor toward his brother.

In the story of the prostitute in Luke 6, the Pharisee thinks that Jesus should refuse her administrations. But Jesus tells him that her great love shows that much has been forgiven--where little has been forgiven, little love is shown. And then Jesus tells her, 'Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.'

I think evidence suggests that we don't quite understand the role of sin in faith.

[ttruscott]

But a person is defined by the WAY he/ she lives their life.

You do remember we are not saved by our good works, right? Well the corollary is that neither are we damned by our evil works on earth - as they are just the symptoms of our being already evil at heart by our own free will choice.

A person is defined by their free will choice to accept or to reject YHWH as their GOD, not by jaywalking or saving a life on earth.

[Peds nurse]

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[Replying to post 13 by Peds nurse]

Hi PN,

Why should a 'perfect creator' expect humans that he supposedly created as IMPERFECT meet his standards of perfection? If 'he' doesn't expect perfection what is the point of 'punishing' those who fall short?

Mr. Z!!!!! I always feel SO privileged when you respond to a post. Thank you!

In the beginning, God chose creation. If we are made in His image, then we have the power to choose as well. God could have created us in such a way, that we were obedient little drones, but that isn't what He wanted. He desired for us to choose him. Think about this for a moment. I get really excited and feel so blessed to have you respond to my post. You don't have to respond. You can choose to ignore me all together. What makes it very precious to me, is that out of all the things you could do, you chose to give me some of your time.

The 'perfect creator' seems to have created a very imperfect world.

If we produce an artificial intelligence with limited capabilities it would be irrational of us to expect (or set standards) that are beyond its capabilities.

AI, does not have the power to choose anything against its programming. It cannot feel, love, nor have compassion. It cannot say, "above all else I could be doing, I choose you." I'm glad that I'm not a drone, because then I couldn't tell you how much I really appreciate you

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

AI, does not have the power to choose anything against its programming.

Psalm 139:
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

God already has our actions written into his book. Every choice we make has already been foreseen. In what real way is this any different from being unable to overcome our programming?

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

AI, does not have the power to choose anything against its programming.

Psalm 139:
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

God already has our actions written into his book. Every choice we make has already been foreseen. In what real way is this any different from being unable to overcome our programming?

Hey ToTN!! Hope things are well

I love Psalm 139! When the Psalmist says, ordained, I always thought it to mean that He knows how long I live, or all the days of my life. He does know my thoughts from afar, so I understand where you are coming from. Even so, knowing and causing are two very different things. He knows what we will choose, does not mean that He chooses for us.

[marco]

But you assume that Adam wasn’t a real person –

He wasn't a real person but I said that we have no knowledge of the FIRST HUMAN. Adam is a figurative attempt to explain the start of the human race and as you say, he is an invention by the writers. They may well know about their invention but NOT about the first human.

Further, I don't think man has fallen but has steadily risen over the centuries.

Then you’ve proved my point – that being called a sinner doesn’t screw people up.

You have a very liberal idea of proof. Did I suggest that those people who have raised humankind were the recipients of the slander? Those who suffer under the burden of being called sinners may well pick themselves up - but it is DESPITE the name-calling not because of it. Those with humanitarian aims or those keen on advancing mankind rather than God will know they're not sinners and dismiss the notion as they move to higher and more important matters.

[JLB32168]

He wasn't a real person but I said that we have no knowledge of the FIRST HUMAN. Adam is a figurative attempt to explain the start of the human race and as you say, he is an invention by the writers. They may well know about their invention but NOT about the first human.

This entire line of discussion originated in your statement that Adam was constructed perfectly but managed to be imperfect. I clarified that there’s nothing in the Scripture that says that Adam was constructed perfectly.

Thus far, you’d suggested that being called a sinner irreparably handicaps people. I’m sure that some people are deleteriously affected by being called sinner but lots of people become arrogant narcissists when fed positive thoughts all of the time as well. Different people take different things different ways but so say that the use of “All are sinners� devastates the human psyche, which is essentially what you’re suggesting, is not a little sensationalist if you ask me.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

AI, does not have the power to choose anything against its programming.

Psalm 139:
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

God already has our actions written into his book. Every choice we make has already been foreseen. In what real way is this any different from being unable to overcome our programming?

Hey ToTN!! Hope things are well

I love Psalm 139! When the Psalmist says, ordained, I always thought it to mean that He knows how long I live, or all the days of my life. He does know my thoughts from afar, so I understand where you are coming from. Even so, knowing and causing are two very different things. He knows what we will choose, does not mean that He chooses for us.

God knew Adam and Eve would choose to fail Him when He created them, didn't He? Clearly then, He intentionally created them to fail. The same can be said for the serpent. It was created to be the cause of Adam and Eve's downfall. The fall of humankind was God's plan all along. If it was not, then God FAILED to achieve His intentions. Adam and Eve were created to fail, and there was no way out. Because the God of the Bible never promised anyone complete true free will. Things will always inevitably turn out as God intended that they would. The only other conclusion is that God sometimes fails to get the results He intends to get. The first view of God is of a mean little boy tormenting a bunch of ants. The second view is of a God who is capable of failure. Neither view is especially attractive or comforting. God inevitably dances to the tune of whichever individual is attempting to describe His nature and characteristics. Which is one reason why so many of us have reached the conclusion that this contradictory bit of make believe has absolutely nothing to do with anything real or valid.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to Peds nurse]

AI, does not have the power to choose anything against its programming.

Psalm 139:
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

God already has our actions written into his book. Every choice we make has already been foreseen. In what real way is this any different from being unable to overcome our programming?

Indeed, you are correct that our lives are programmed here on earth (though that is so socially unacceptable that even those who know the Word says that deny it most vehemently) but it only affects those who are being redeemed from sinfulness to holiness, that is, the sinful elect, They live predetermined lives to ensure the most perfect redemption they can have. The non-elect are only programmed as they impact the sinful elect. This predetermination of our lives WAS NOT a predetermination of our FATE which was by our free will only but any elect who sins lives a life perfectly designed to fulfill the election promise in HIM, aka, salvation.

In other words our programming, our creation, included only the ability and the opportunity to use our free will to choose to become perfect: perfectly good or perfectly eternally evil. No programming interfered with our making the choice but once we chose sin and are sent to earth, then we live lives programmed to suit HIS purposes until our free will is restored.