Did we Exist Before The Garden of Eden?

[theStudent]

For debate:
Did we all exist in the spirit realm or in another realm before our birth as humans?

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 16 by ttruscott]

Thanks, but could you give me scriptural references for each of these?
I should be able to check that you are backing these with scripture, and they can be scripturally verified.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 19 by ttruscott]

You keep referring to "God creating his bride".
When did God have a bride, or create one, that's recorded in scripture?

[ttruscott]

According to the Bible, we made no choice to sin when we were born. We inherited it from Adam.

Again, where?

WE were created to be the Bride of Christ. Why would HE create HIS Bride as evil and disgustingly corrupt? There is no little sin as any sin sends the sinner to hell or puts Christ on the cross. So HIS Bride was created as evil, corrupted and hateful as the worst demon...for what???

I do not agree with this.
Where does the scriptures say

WE were created to be the Bride of Christ.

Do you demand such niceties from yourself in your bible study? Many doctrines are implied in scripture, not specifically stated.

The very first thing that happens when the last of the martyrs are killed is the judgement day banishing all the demonic reprobate into the lake of fire in the outer darkness. And what comes next? The marriage of the Lamb to the holy Church...the marriage that ends the whole story! Now if this marriage which is the culmination of all HIS work is not also the purpose of all HIS work, then what could be?

HE started HIS creation with a purpose and it is only perfect if HE ends this era with the fulfillment of that purpose which just happens to be the marriage of HIS Son.

Neither does the scriptures say

HE create HIS Bride as evil and disgustingly corrupt

Again, the Bride is the holy church but the holy church on earth did not start out so holy at all did it? No, the holy church on earth was born evil and disgustingly corrupt.

So if HE made us this way by forcing us by our creation as humans to be evil in Adam and the cause of a great stink of suffering on this earth...I think it is fair to say that HE really monstered HIS Son's Bride for no reason you have provided.

Only if some of HIS Son's Bride, HIS elect, chose to be evil in HIS sight by rebelling against HIM in some way and as sinners are born into Adam's family line is GOD free from these accusations that cannot be otherwise answered. HIS Bride on earth is corrupt because they chose corruption. They are born in Adam not to get HIS corruption but to be brought into his death, so Christ need die but once for the redemption of all HIS sinful Bride.

So you are in agreement with what is said here (Colossians 1:21-23) Indeed, you who were once alienated and enemies because your minds were on the works that were wicked, he has now reconciled by means of that one’s fleshly body through his death, in order to present you holy and unblemished and open to no accusation before him — provided, of course, that you continue in the faith, . . .

Did you notice it says

you who were once alienated and enemies

So they were not always God's children, nor Christ's bride. They only became his creation after they put faith in God's word, and were born of water and the spirit - born again. Did you realize that?

Well thanks for the rather didactic lecture but I only realize that others believe that, while I contend that:

So they were not always God's children, nor Christ's bride.

is wrongly decided.

I rest my decision upon (amongst other verses): 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. which plainly teaches that we are HIis sheep before we went astray and going astray did not make us not of HIS flock, only gone astray. The prodigal son did not cease to be in his father's family when he went to sin city and was accepted back as a family member when he repented.

In the same way it is written you have returned to the Shepherd which prompts me to ask you "When did His sheep go astray into sin when they are born in sin??? unless they sinned pre-birth like the disciples thought the man born blind did.

IF His sheep are His sheep before they sinned and NOT just when they are reborn /returned to Him your argument breaks down as once alienated and enemies then does not mean "not a sheep" but only "a sheep gone astray." To be a sheep is to be an elect, someone under HIS promise of salvation given before the foundation of the world.

What do you mean by

There is no little sin as any sin sends the sinner to hell or puts Christ on the cross.

I forget why I wrote this but it means that all sin has only one value in YHWH's sight...it only has an ultimate disvalue! No sin has any value less than the ultimate disvalue to GOD and the proof is that any tiny (using a word as others do) sin sends people to hell or, if they are under HIS promise of salvation, puts Christ on the cross for their redemption.

It makes no sense at all when we know HE could have made us each as individuals culpable of only our own sin because HE did that already in Adam and Eve! It is absurd to think HE created HIS church evil by making them human.

God did it his way. He created a man and woman and told them to have children and fill the earth. God did not intend for them to die. They rebelled and lost the hope of living forever on earth. Their offspring suffered because of them, but God mercifully made a way out for them, by being willing to sacrifice the life of his dear son, to redeem mankind, and restore their earthly home.

I disagree HE did it this way and until you answer every verse rather than just repeat "That is the way it is!" I will continue because at the heart of your answer is the blasphemy that HE couldn't find a more loving and righteous method when my theology easily proves an option with a higher morality can be envisioned.

So, tell me why you think HE did it this way! Give me a convincing reason.

The reason this was accepted by the Church was in support of our creation on earth either by traducianism or creationism of the soul but our pre-conception existences offers everything the created on earth theory does without all the blasphemy.

No. The teaching that Adam is/was the father of all living, and that his offspring inherited sin from him, is Biblical. It is supported by numerous Bible writers.
Can you prove otherwise?

Ahhh, one who knows we live by faith not proof demands proof like a secularist, alas. No I cannot prove anything from scripture and neither can you.

You keep writing "that his offspring inherited sin from him, is Biblical" but refuse to quote the scriptures you rely on for this fact yet I've asked twice already. Interesting, no? Adam as the father of all living doesn't automatically make him the cause of our sin, does it. So to follow your lead on how to argue theology, where is it written that we inherit Adam's sin? It is not so written is it; you extrapolate it from a verse somewhere which I for one find as an acceptable form of exegesis and I hope you have learned a bit about this too. Such extrapolations are interpretations, our best guess as to the correct meaning even if a church sect accepts such interpretations as the only gospel truth.

Nowhere in the bible is there any hint, implication nor inference that our pre-earth existence must be rejected and I have dozens of scripture verses that imply it is true so that it really should overwhelm all Christians like it did me.

I believe those of us in disagreement, would like to see any proof, you can present.

I have no proof that nowhere in the bible is there any hint, implication nor inference that our pre-earth existence must be rejected but I put it out there for any who stumble across such an inference may correct me.

AS for my interpretation of Christian PCE I am either securely based upon a verse or a simple step of extrapolation suggested by a simple interpretation of another verse. I follow what is called The golden rule of biblical interpretation: that is that usually the plainest sense or interpretation most closely resembles what GOD wants us to do or know. Although this seems to be very easy, such things are never allowed to be so simple as to make the illumination of the Holy Spirit unnecessary.

It also seems germane to speak to the fact that orthodoxy about our creation extends back to the earliest Rabbis that the breath GOD gave to Adam caused HIS life to start and was not to mean that HE breathed the spirit called Adam into his new body but Adam was not new. Such a long history of orthodox belief even if periodically questioned (Origen for one) provides a ballast against any new interpretation that is very hard to sway...I am reminded of my own stand against PCE for years.

This means essentially that any interpretation I can provide will automatically look and feel just plain wrong, especially as the implications ripple out from each verse washing over favourite orthodox interpretations in all areas of doctrine.

These are the verses and their interpretations I tend to use to support and defend my PCE. Where should we start?

Revelation 22:18,19

Elephants
John 16:12
Philippians 4:13
Luke 10:21
Proverbs 8:11, 34-36; Isaiah 43:27,28;Hosea 4:6; John 4:23; and 1 Timothy 4:16.
Genesis 1:1 to 5:1

genesis
Genesis 2:18 and 2:25
Genesis 3:21
Genesis 2:20
2 Peter 2:4
Genesis 2:15,16
Genesis 2:23
Numbers 22-24
Genesis 3:12

gen 2
Genesis 3:7
Genesis 3:10
Genesis 3:11
Revelation 3:4
2 Kings 3:21
Revelation 3:17,18

gen 3
Genesis 3:14
Genesis 3:15
Malachi 3:18
Hebrews 12:26
Acts 17:30
Isaiah 34:11
Jeremiah 4:23

going back
Job 1:21
Psalm 9:17
Psalm 23:6
Ecclesiastes 12:7
John 3:12
John 3:13
1 Peter 1:3 2:25
2 Peter 2:4,9
Revelation 3:12
Acts 7:44
Ecclesiastes 5:13-16
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
John 3:3
Deuteronomy 32:5,6
2 Peter 2:4,9

jn begin
1 John 1:1
1 John 2:7
Isaiah 40:21
1 John 2:14
1 John 2:24
1 John 3:8
1 John 3:11
1 John 3:23

JDGMNT PSTPND
Genesis 15:16
Joshua 6:21; 8:26,27; 10:40
Matthew 13:28
Matthew 23:37
Matthew 25:34
Romans 9:22
Romans 9:23
1 Peter 4:5
2 Peter 3:11
Revelation 6:9
Revelation 10:6
Matthew 10:34-37
Joshua 6:21
Joshua 8:26,27
Joshua 10:40
Romans 1:20
Revelation 6:10
Matthew 7:29

Know.1
Psalm 9:17
Isaiah 40:21, John 3:18, and Romans1:18-32
Psalms 9:17
John 1:9

Know.2
Romans 1:18-20, 28, 32
Romans 2:6-8
Romans 1:16
Genesis 1:3 to 31 32
1 Corinthians 13:12
Colossians 1:21-23
1 John 2:14
Romans 10:14

MISFITS.1
Genesis 3:21 Genesis 3:19
Genesis 3:7-14 3:21
Matthew 7:21
Revelation 3:17-20
Job 10:9-12 10:13a
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Genesis 4:10
Job 38:4
The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 10:1
Ephesians 4:24 and 5:27
Revelation 3:17
Matthew 7:21, 22:11
1 Corinthians 5:11, 6:9; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5 and Revelation 21:8
Luke 12:48

MISFITS.2
John 3:4
Romans 5:8
Romans 8:29
Revelation 20:15
Romans 9:1
2 Timothy 1:9
1 Timothy 5:21
Genesis 25:22
Hebrews 2:14 Hebrews 2:6,7,9,17
Hebrews 11:13-16
John 11:50,51
See John 9:1-7

New Rev
Luke 24:27
Isaiah 11:9
Jeremiah 23:20
Jeremiah 32:36 to 33:26
Genesis 17
Luke 10:21
John 16:12

New - 2
Daniel 12:7-10
Zechariah 5:2-5

New -3
John 14:26
John 16:12-13
John 9:4
16:25
1 Corinthians 13:9-12
Exodus 33:11; Deuteronomy 34:10 Genesis 32:20 and Isaiah 52:8
1 John 3:2
Hebrews 12:26
John 16:29
John 16:26
John 14:5-11
Exodus 33:11
Genesis 32:30
Isaiah 52:8
Haggai 2:6

New Book of rev
Revelation 2:17
Revelation 3:12
Revelation 5:1
Revelation 10:2-4,8
Amos 3:7,8
Revelation 10:7
Psalm 29:3
Revelation 14:6
Revelation 22:18,19
Psalm 78:25
Exodus 16:15

I can guarantee you can read every verse on this list and not find one reference to PCE ...because all your understanding is tied so firmly to orthodoxy it can see no possibility of any other interpretation.

I though, can articulate why I find PCE in these verses and how they relate to doctrine.

[ttruscott]

Please consider who are the people, these Sons of GOD in Job 38:7 who sang HIS praise at the creation of the physical universe and what is your proof they did not include Adam and Eve and you and me?

Why do you conclude the sons of God were pre-humans not simply angels? After all we know that God lives in heaven with angels...

I accept that we were there due to Rom 1:20. I do not try to prove we were there but I like to use this verse to show that we might have been there...there is no scripture against it and Rom 1:20 is a pretty strong argument.

[postroad]

Psalm 51:5

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Also

Exodus 20:5-6New International Version (NIV)


5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Did every generation of Jews have the opportunity to confirm or reject the terms of the old covenant? Seems to me that they automatically came under its jurisdiction and suffered the curses for disobedience even though only a single generation actually agreed to them.

Sodom would have been spared for the sake of ten righteous person. Am I to believe that not ten individuals from the point of conception to the age of accountability did not exist in the city?

[JehovahsWitness]

I accept that we were there due to Rom 1:20. I do not try to prove we were there but I like to use this verse to show that we might have been there...there is no scripture against it and Rom 1:20 is a pretty strong argument.

I cannot see how Romans can be seen as a "strong argument" for prehuman existence; in fact I can't see how it can be offered to support the argument at all.

New Living Translation
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

#1 Paul clearly stated that the context of his words are related to human beings veres 18-19 states "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them." - ASV

#2 Paul, again in verse 20 clearly states he is referring to evidence of God's qualities being clear to "people" (humans) not pre-human spirit beings

#3 The passage says they (people) can see God's qualities (not God himself) through the material creation. Angels (or those that had a prehuman existence) wouldn't need the material creation as evidence of God because they would have already literally met him (God).

#4 Paul is arguing that humans have no excuse "for not knowing God". The Berean Study Bible says "so that men are without excuse."; obviously the implication is such denial is POSSIBLE or the statement would be redundant. If I said "there's no excuse for kicking your grandma down the stairs" obviously kicking your grandma down the stairs must be a possibility.

I base this interpretation of the scope of the proof on the total failure of any study of nature to 1. be able to prove YHWH's deity and power

Millions of people see the many studies of nature, (the precision of the physical universe, the way the human body develops and works, the instinctive wisdom of animals, the "design" and function of those animals... and many many other studies) as evidence of God's existence, qualities and godship. It is a demonstrable fact that I am not alone in drawing such conclusions from the scientific studies done past and present.

Rom 1:20 ... accept YHWH's (not just any god) deity and power (check the context for yourself).

#5 Paul doesn't argue that creation reveals WHO the true God is from the natural world. He states "what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them". Paul goes on to explain that "what may be know about God" from nature is his (God's) "God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature", not His name and not his identity (YHWH). There is not even a hint that Paul is speaking of pre-human existence.

[Indeed, the deeper someone studies nature it seems like the more they deny YHWH or as billions of Hindus have proved, many have looked at nature and decided they are God!]

And such ones are inexcusable in God's eyes. If they don't repent they will be condemned and face eternal destruction. That is Paul's point.

2. the total lack of anyone anywhere of ever coming to know YHWH before a missionary taught him what the verse meant. And if all cultures everywhere knew of YHWH by looking at nature, what a great conspiracy it must have been to pretend ignorance of YHWH when the missionaries finally did come!

(see point #5 above)





CONCLUSION: There is absolutely nothing in Romans 1:20 that could reasonably presented as proof of prehuman existence.

[JehovahsWitness]

These are the verses and their interpretations I tend to use to support and defend my PCE. [...]

Revelation 22:18,19

Elephants
John 16:12
Philippians 4:13
Luke 10:21
Proverbs 8:11, 34-36; Isaiah 43:27,28;Hosea 4:6; John 4:23; and 1 Timothy 4:16.
Genesis 1:1 to 5:1

genesis
Genesis 2:18 and 2:25
Genesis 3:21
Genesis 2:20
2 Peter 2:4
Genesis 2:15,16
Genesis 2:23
Numbers 22-24
Genesis 3:12

gen 2
Genesis 3:7
Genesis 3:10
Genesis 3:11
Revelation 3:4
2 Kings 3:21
Revelation 3:17,18

gen 3
Genesis 3:14
Genesis 3:15
Malachi 3:18
Hebrews 12:26
Acts 17:30
Isaiah 34:11
Jeremiah 4:23

going back
Job 1:21
Psalm 9:17
Psalm 23:6
Ecclesiastes 12:7
John 3:12
John 3:13
1 Peter 1:3 2:25
2 Peter 2:4,9
Revelation 3:12
Acts 7:44
Ecclesiastes 5:13-16
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
John 3:3
Deuteronomy 32:5,6
2 Peter 2:4,9

jn begin
1 John 1:1
1 John 2:7
Isaiah 40:21
1 John 2:14
1 John 2:24
1 John 3:8
1 John 3:11
1 John 3:23

JDGMNT PSTPND
Genesis 15:16
Joshua 6:21; 8:26,27; 10:40
Matthew 13:28
Matthew 23:37
Matthew 25:34
Romans 9:22
Romans 9:23
1 Peter 4:5
2 Peter 3:11
Revelation 6:9
Revelation 10:6
Matthew 10:34-37
Joshua 6:21
Joshua 8:26,27
Joshua 10:40
Romans 1:20
Revelation 6:10
Matthew 7:29

Know.1
Psalm 9:17
Isaiah 40:21, John 3:18, and Romans1:18-32
Psalms 9:17
John 1:9

Know.2
Romans 1:18-20, 28, 32
Romans 2:6-8
Romans 1:16
Genesis 1:3 to 31 32
1 Corinthians 13:12
Colossians 1:21-23
1 John 2:14
Romans 10:14

MISFITS.1
Genesis 3:21 Genesis 3:19
Genesis 3:7-14 3:21
Matthew 7:21
Revelation 3:17-20
Job 10:9-12 10:13a
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Genesis 4:10
Job 38:4
The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 10:1
Ephesians 4:24 and 5:27
Revelation 3:17
Matthew 7:21, 22:11
1 Corinthians 5:11, 6:9; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5 and Revelation 21:8
Luke 12:48

MISFITS.2
John 3:4
Romans 5:8
Romans 8:29
Revelation 20:15
Romans 9:1
2 Timothy 1:9
1 Timothy 5:21
Genesis 25:22
Hebrews 2:14 Hebrews 2:6,7,9,17
Hebrews 11:13-16
John 11:50,51
See John 9:1-7

New Rev
Luke 24:27
Isaiah 11:9
Jeremiah 23:20
Jeremiah 32:36 to 33:26
Genesis 17
Luke 10:21
John 16:12

New - 2
Daniel 12:7-10
Zechariah 5:2-5

New -3
John 14:26
John 16:12-13
John 9:4
16:25
1 Corinthians 13:9-12
Exodus 33:11; Deuteronomy 34:10 Genesis 32:20 and Isaiah 52:8
1 John 3:2
Hebrews 12:26
John 16:29
John 16:26
John 14:5-11
Exodus 33:11
Genesis 32:30
Isaiah 52:8
Haggai 2:6

New Book of rev
Revelation 2:17
Revelation 3:12
Revelation 5:1
Revelation 10:2-4,8
Amos 3:7,8
Revelation 10:7
Psalm 29:3
Revelation 14:6
Revelation 22:18,19
Psalm 78:25
Exodus 16:15

I though, can articulate why I find PCE in these verses and how they relate to doctrine.

... Where should we start?

I suggest you start with your first scripture, offering a detailed explanation of how you interpret it and work through your list that way. I would also suggest you write one post per scripture to avoid the posts being overly long, since there are quite a few scriptures you will be presenting a commentary on.

I look forward to reading this series of posts and appreciate the time you will be dedicating to this project

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

AS well, we have Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant....easily but not universally whitewashed of its pre-existence implications.

RESPONSE

First notice Paul did not say "in heaven" or "in existence" (which would cover all creation) he said "UNDER the heavens". If we, as seems reasonable, take "the heavens" to refer to God's abode, where God lives with his son Jesus and all the angels, then "under the heavens" would simply mean "on earth" (for heaven is frequently depicted in depicted as being "up" or "above/over" the earth). The expression would seem to be the equivalent of "under the sun", as used frequently by the writer of Ecclesiastes. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, referring to the latter expression, states "The phrase itself seems to signify simply "on this earth" (see especially Eccl 7:20, Eccl 8:16, Eccl 11:2)"

Matthew Poole's Commentary explains Paul's word in the following terms " the faithful apostles, according to the commission of Christ, had promulgated to every creature beneath the heavens, i.e. every rational creature here below, i.e. to all men, collectively, or nations in the world, as Colossians 1:6 Matthew 28:19 Mark 16:15. Creature with the Hebrews doth eminently signify man, [...]. In the original it is, in all the creature; and so it may be, in all the world, (creature being sometimes used for the system of the world, Romans 8:19-21), in opposition to Judea, i.e. in those other parts of the earth which the Greeks and Romans knew to be then inhabited"

QUESTION Was Paul claiming that every individual person had received a personal testimony?

No, Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible explains "This must be understood not of every individual creature, even human and rational, that was then, or had been in, the world; but that it had been, and was preached far and near, in all places all over the world, to the Gentiles as well as to the Jews; who are sometimes styled "every creature", "the creature", "the whole creation", "all men", (see Mark 16:15 Titus 2:11) [...] the sound of all the apostles went into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world"{end quote} In other words Paul's statement is not to be taken literally, as if meaning that every person alive on earth under heaven was being personally reached. It meant that the preaching of the good news was being pushed to all quarters of the inhabited earth under heaven and that all human creatures or groups of human society at the time, without regard for language, color, race or nationality, were being given the opportunity to hear the Kingdom message.


QUESTION: Does the fact that at Paul claimed that this had been accomplished prior to his writing imply that it started before the people in question were born?

No. As has been stated, this preaching work was conducted "under" heaven not "in" heaven and therefore would concern people hearing the good news for the first time while living on this planet earth. Further if Paul was writing around 60 CE (during his first imprisonment in Rome), then he would naturally be refering to the accomplishments of the first century preachers prior to that year. Was such a thing possible? Could the gospel have spread throughout the known world in just 30 years?

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary and points out {quote} "Pliny, not many years subsequently, in his famous letter to the Emperor Trajan [Epistles, Book X., Epistle 97], writes, "Many of every age, rank, and sex, are being brought to trial. For the contagion of that superstition [Christianity] has spread over not only cities, but villages and the country."

Regarding the speed of the initiative, Professor J. W. Thompson pointed out: “Christianity had spread with remarkable rapidity over the Roman world. By the year 100 probably every province that bordered the Mediterranean had a Christian community within it, and in many provinces there were several congregations. The vertical expansion upward from the lowly classes who had been its first converts into the upper strata of Roman society seems also to have been rapid.�—History of the Middle Ages, p. 22.






CONCLUSION Given the above, there seems no reason to conclude that Paul was saying anything other than that at the time of his writing, the good news had been preached in all the (the known) world. There is absolutely no explicit or implicit indication that the above imposes any kind of pre-existent life for the recipients of that message.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 23 by ttruscott]

According to the Bible, we made no choice to sin when we were born. We inherited it from Adam.

Again, where?

(Romans 5:12-19)

That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned — . For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many! Also, it is not the same with the free gift as with the way things worked through the one man who sinned. For the judgment after one trespass was condemnation, but the gift after many trespasses was a declaration of righteousness. For if by the trespass of the one man death ruled as king through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ!
So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous.

(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22)

For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

(Acts 17:26)

. . .he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell...

These verses say it was by the one man - Adam's - that sin, and passed on that sin to generations?
If you disagree, please show what these texts are saying.

Do you demand such niceties from yourself in your bible study? Many doctrines are implied in scripture, not specifically stated.

I'm just asking you for scripture to support what you are saying.
When someone gives me their viewpoint, I am not just interested in what they believe. I'm interested in why they believe what they say, and if they are able to scripturally explain it.
If they can't use the scriptures to explain it, then it is clearly just an idea, either of their own, or another man.
Do you think that's a good thing for one to do, or bad?
(1 Peter 3:15)

But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

The very first thing that happens when the last of the martyrs are killed is the judgement day banishing all the demonic reprobate into the lake of fire in the outer darkness. And what comes next? The marriage of the Lamb to the holy Church...the marriage that ends the whole story! Now if this marriage which is the culmination of all HIS work is not also the purpose of all HIS work, then what could be?

HE started HIS creation with a purpose and it is only perfect if HE ends this era with the fulfillment of that purpose which just happens to be the marriage of HIS Son.

This could lead into a whole new topic, which I want to avoid.
What I am asking you basically is, when did God create a bride? What scriptures say/show that he did so? Was it before Adam, from Adam, or after Adam? At what point was the bride created?

Again, the Bride is the holy church but the holy church on earth did not start out so holy at all did it? No, the holy church on earth was born evil and disgustingly corrupt.

So if HE made us this way by forcing us by our creation as humans to be evil in Adam and the cause of a great stink of suffering on this earth...I think it is fair to say that HE really monstered HIS Son's Bride for no reason you have provided.

Only if some of HIS Son's Bride, HIS elect, chose to be evil in HIS sight by rebelling against HIM in some way and as sinners are born into Adam's family line is GOD free from these accusations that cannot be otherwise answered. HIS Bride on earth is corrupt because they chose corruption. They are born in Adam not to get HIS corruption but to be brought into his death, so Christ need die but once for the redemption of all HIS sinful Bride.

So are you saying God's bride is Adam's offspring?
You'll have to show me a scripture that supports that view.
The first time any mention is made of a bride belonging to God, is in regard to his relationship with the nation of Israel - the sons of Jacob.
(Isaiah 62:1-5)

For the sake of Zion I will not keep silent, And for the sake of Jerusalem I will not keep still Until her righteousness shines like a bright light And her salvation burns like a torch.  
“The nations will see your righteousness, O woman, And all kings your glory. And you will be called by a new name, Which Jehovah’s own mouth will designate.  
You will become a crown of beauty in the hand of Jehovah, A royal turban in the palm of your God.  
No more will you be called an abandoned woman, And your land will no longer be called desolate. But you will be called My Delight Is in Her, And your land will be called the Married One. For Jehovah will take delight in you, And your land will be as one married.  
For just as a young man marries a virgin, Your sons will marry you. With the rejoicing of a bridegroom over a bride, Your God will rejoice over you.

I rest my decision upon (amongst other verses): 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. which plainly teaches that we are HIis sheep before we went astray and going astray did not make us not of HIS flock, only gone astray. The prodigal son did not cease to be in his father's family when he went to sin city and was accepted back as a family member when he repented.

In the same way it is written you have returned to the Shepherd which prompts me to ask you "When did His sheep go astray into sin when they are born in sin??? unless they sinned pre-birth like the disciples thought the man born blind did.

IF His sheep are His sheep before they sinned and NOT just when they are reborn /returned to Him your argument breaks down as once alienated and enemies then does not mean "not a sheep" but only "a sheep gone astray." To be a sheep is to be an elect, someone under HIS promise of salvation given before the foundation of the world.

Now that's what I was talking about ttruscott. I really appreciate your using scripture to explain your view. It makes it so much easier to communicate, because I can easily understand why you conclude what you believe.
I would welcome that throughout the conversation.

You make a good point.
Those strayed sheep you are speaking of, must have belonged to a shepherd.
Who is the shepherd? We both agree, Jehovah God, or maybe you prefer the LORD God, or YHWH.
Who are the sheep? Paul seems to be quoting Isaiah 53:6

Like sheep we have all wandered about, Each has turned his own way, And Jehovah has caused the error of us all to meet up with him.

This seems to indicate, it refers to Adam's offspring that were sold into sin, as I mentioned before. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22)

In what way were these sheep lost?

(Psalm 51:5) Look! I was born guilty of error, And my mother conceived me in sin.
(Psalm 58:3) The wicked go astray from birth; They are wayward, liars from the time they are born.
(1 Peter 3:18) For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.
(2 Corinthians 5:18) But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation,

These scriptures tell me that we were lost sheep from birth - birth after Adam.
Adam's sin led all of his offspring away from their shepherd.

It can easily be illustrated from God's dealings with the nation of Israel, whom he call his sheep, and whom he gathered from the nations.
First, he gathered them, but they were scattered in two ways.

1. The under-shepherds who he put to look after them, and feed them, scattered them, and led them astray.
2. God himself scattered them, when they became wayward. But he intended to go look for them, and bind their wounds. He gave his sheep with goat-like behaviors many opportunities. Until finally he scattered them completely, but amazingly - showing what a loving shepherd he is - he went looking for them again, to see if he could find a remnant of changed ones. What abundant loving kindness, and mercy... and patience.

(Ezekiel 34:1-16)

The word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy, and say to the shepherds, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel, who have been feeding themselves! Is it not the flock that the shepherds should feed? You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, and you slaughter the fattest animal, but you do not feed the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bandaged the injured or brought back the strays or looked for the lost; rather, you have ruled them with harshness and tyranny. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd; they were scattered and became food for every wild beast of the field. My sheep were straying on all the mountains and on every high hill; my sheep were scattered over all the surface of the earth, with no one searching for them or seeking to find them. “‘“Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah: ‘“As surely as I am alive,� declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “because my sheep have become prey, food for every wild beast of the field, for there was no shepherd, and my shepherds did not search for my sheep; rather, they kept feeding themselves and did not feed my sheep,�’ therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah. This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘I am against the shepherds, and I will demand an accounting of them for my sheep, and I will dismiss them from feeding my sheep, and the shepherds will no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouth, and they will no longer be food for them.’� “‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Here I am, and I myself will search for my sheep, and I will care for them. I will care for my sheep like a shepherd who has found his scattered sheep and is feeding them. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered in the day of clouds and thick gloom. I will bring them out from the peoples and collect them together from the lands and bring them into their land and feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams and by all the dwelling places of the land. In a good pasture I will feed them, and the land where they graze will be on Israel’s high mountains. They will lie down there in a good grazing land, and they will feed on choice pastures on the mountains of Israel.� “‘“I myself will feed my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down,� declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. “The lost one I will search for, the stray I will bring back, the injured I will bandage, and the weak I will strengthen; but the fat one and the strong one I will annihilate. I will feed that one with judgment.�

(Psalm 95:10)

For 40 years I felt a loathing toward that generation, and I said: “They are a people who always go astray in their hearts; They have not come to know my ways.�

(Jeremiah 23:3)

“Then I will gather together the remnant of my sheep from all the lands to which I have dispersed them, and I will bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and become many.

I forget why I wrote this but it means that all sin has only one value in YHWH's sight...it only has an ultimate disvalue! No sin has any value less than the ultimate disvalue to GOD and the proof is that any tiny (using a word as others do) sin sends people to hell or, if they are under HIS promise of salvation, puts Christ on the cross for their redemption.

Thanks. I'll probably come back to this later.

So, tell me why you think HE did it this way! Give me a convincing reason.

I don't know if I can convince you with anything, other than the Bible.

He created a man and woman and told them to have children and fill the earth. God did not intend for them to die. They rebelled and lost the hope of living forever on earth. Their offspring suffered because of them, but God mercifully made a way out for them, by being willing to sacrifice the life of his dear son, to redeem mankind, and restore their earthly home.

God gave life to the man and woman, and gave them the privilege of filling the earth with their offspring, and taking care of all the wonderful things of nature. I personal this is a beautiful gift, and even more beautiful to be able to live forever with all your progeny. That's a great privilege.
(Genesis 1:26-28, 31)

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.� And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.� After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good.

(Genesis 2:15-25)

Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.� Then Jehovah God said: “It is not good for the man to continue to be alone. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.� Now Jehovah God had been forming from the ground every wild animal of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call each living creature, that became its name. So the man named all the domestic animals and the flying creatures of the heavens and every wild animal of the field, but for man there was no helper as a complement of him. So Jehovah God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. And Jehovah God built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman, and he brought her to the man. Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman, Because from man she was taken.� That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh. And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife; yet they were not ashamed.

After Adam's sin, God made provisions to set mankind free from sin and death, and restore thing to the way God purposed in the beginning - fulfill God's purpose.
(1 Corinthians 15)

3 For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;
16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up.
17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins.
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. . .
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.
21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.
25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.
26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.
27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.� But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.
28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

JW referred you to a video earlier. I hope you looked at it. Here.

Ahhh, one who knows we live by faith not proof demands proof like a secularist, alas. No I cannot prove anything from scripture and neither can you.

Now ttruscott, that's what is clearly a teaching of man. Not scripture.
(Acts 17:1-9) They now traveled through Am·phipʹo·lis and Ap·ol·loʹni·a and came to Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, saying: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you.� As a result, some of them became believers and associated themselves with Paul and Silas, and so did a great multitude of the Greeks who worshipped God, along with quite a few of the principal women. But the Jews, getting jealous, gathered together some wicked men who were loitering at the marketplace and formed a mob and proceeded to throw the city into an uproar. They assaulted the house of Jaʹson and were seeking to have Paul and Silas brought out to the mob. When they did not find them, they dragged Jaʹson and some of the brothers to the city rulers, crying out: “These men who have overturned the inhabited earth are present here also, and Jaʹson has received them as his guests. All these men act in opposition to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king, Jesus.� 8 When they heard these things, the crowd and the city rulers were alarmed; and after taking sufficient security from Jaʹson and the others, they let them go.

I'm surprised though, since you say you have numerous scriptures to prove your claim that there was a pre-earth from which we came.
This is a confusing statement.
How should I proceed from here?
If you can't prove anything from scripture, then how can I take your claim of faith seriously?

You keep writing "that his offspring inherited sin from him, is Biblical" but refuse to quote the scriptures you rely on for this fact yet I've asked twice already. Interesting, no?

I'm sorry. Forgive me. I probably missed it.
I've addressed the question in this post.

I have no proof that nowhere in the bible is there any hint, implication nor inference that our pre-earth existence must be rejected but I put it out there for any who stumble across such an inference may correct me.

AS for my interpretation of Christian PCE I am either securely based upon a verse or a simple step of extrapolation suggested by a simple interpretation of another verse. I follow what is called The golden rule of biblical interpretation: that is that usually the plainest sense or interpretation most closely resembles what GOD wants us to do or know. Although this seems to be very easy, such things are never allowed to be so simple as to make the illumination of the Holy Spirit unnecessary.

It also seems germane to speak to the fact that orthodoxy about our creation extends back to the earliest Rabbis that the breath GOD gave to Adam caused HIS life to start and was not to mean that HE breathed the spirit called Adam into his new body but Adam was not new. Such a long history of orthodox belief even if periodically questioned (Origen for one) provides a ballast against any new interpretation that is very hard to sway...I am reminded of my own stand against PCE for years.

This means essentially that any interpretation I can provide will automatically look and feel just plain wrong, especially as the implications ripple out from each verse washing over favourite orthodox interpretations in all areas of doctrine.

It is possible to know what the Bible is saying, but we must follow a very important rule:
(1 Corinthians 4:6) . . .“Do not go beyond the things that are written,� so that you may not be puffed up with pride. . .

These are the verses and their interpretations I tend to use to support and defend my PCE. Where should we start?

See Post 27.

[ttruscott]

#1 Paul clearly stated that the context of his words are related to human beings veres 18-19 states "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them." - ASV

I consider that unrighteous spirits at the time of the creation of the physical world become the unrighteous men here when born into the world. And notice, if this revelation of imparted knowledge is limited to men it is limited to men under HIS wrath - not those under HIS promise of election. Very strange, the condemned get a special knowledge that the faithful do not? OR we all got the revelation by our own experience and this verse is talking about how that makes those under HIS wrath as without excuse, not HIS faithful who reject excuses and come to faith. I am unconvinced.

#2 Paul, again in verse 20 clearly states he is referring to evidence of God's qualities being clear to "people" (humans) not pre-human spirit beings

This is just a restatement of#1 and I will stand by my take on it. As well, I consider there it is the spirit of a person that makes him to be a person so I consider that angels are persons...just not human persons. Is not Michael a person? Is not Gabriel?

#3 The passage says they (people) can see God's qualities (not God himself) through the material creation. Angels (or those that had a prehuman existence) wouldn't need the material creation as evidence of God because they would have already literally met him (God).

It is a contention of PCE Christian theology that our free will would have been overruled by proof of YHWH's divinity before we each chose to accept HIM as our GOD or not. Who would ever reject the Glory and Majesty of GOD Almighty if they had personal experience as personal proof?? Proof before the choice was made would have taken the option of rebellion from the table.

So of course we met him or them (for trinitarians) and they looked the same as everyone which was part of the shock when these ordinary people claimed to be a Unity called YHWH who in that Unity was our creator GOD. Only this scenario provided for our true free will (no one being forced believe either option and no one being restricted from accepting either option) and which allowed us to accept or reject HIM by faith, not proof, the most absolute linchpin of Christian salvation. Those who rejected HIM by putting their faith in HIS being a false god and a liar are those born on earth condemned already. My scenario is much fuller and with a deeper acceptance of free will and faith than yours so I will remain with PCE.

#4 Paul is arguing that humans have no excuse "for not knowing God". The Berean Study Bible says "so that men are without excuse."; obviously the implication is such denial is POSSIBLE or the statement would be redundant. If I said "there's no excuse for kicking your grandma down the stairs" obviously kicking your grandma down the stairs must be a possibility.

Of course such denial was possible as proven by the intransigence of the world. But you seem to have stopped with just verse 20 which says no one has an excuse for unbelief, both unrepentant, unconverted believers or the reprobate, because the whole rest of the chapter is devoted to telling us why, if we all have seen the awesome proof of HIS divinity and power we do in fact not believe until gifted with faith! A sinner's love for their sin has them repress all memory of this proof because they love their sin more than the truth. This applies to sinful elect and to the reprobate, that is, it isn't just restricted to men under HIS wrath but all sinners which are also all included though not all mentioned in v20. If no human has excuse it is because all humans saw the proof, not just the goats.

I base this interpretation of the scope of the proof on the total failure of any study of nature to 1. be able to prove YHWH's deity and power

Millions of people see the many studies of nature, (the precision of the physical universe, the way the human body develops and works, the instinctive wisdom of animals, the "design" and function of those animals... and many many other studies) as evidence of God's existence, qualities and godship. It is a demonstrable fact that I am not alone in drawing such conclusions from the scientific studies done past and present.

Look closely at verses 1-20 and you will find that it is not evidence of a God's place in nature that is being mention but YHWH'S place and HIS only. Did your studies in nature teach you YHWH was your God or did that info come before or after your decision about YHWH? It is not hard for some to deny GOD when looking into nature and becoming a deist without ever acknowledging YHWH.

Then there are the millions (?) who study nature and do not arrive at YHWH as GOD. It is entirely possible that you saw the proof when HE who claimed to be GOD created the physical universe, repressed that memory as a sinner for love of sin as the rest of us did and then, on earth, being brought to redemption by GOD using your interest in science and nature to bring you back to HIM. In other words your experience doesn't negate the possibility of PCE being true.

Rom 1:20 ... accept YHWH's (not just any god) deity and power (check the context for yourself).

#5 Paul doesn't argue that creation reveals WHO the true God is from the natural world. He states "what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them". Paul goes on to explain that "what may be know about God" from nature is his (God's) "God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature", not His name and not his identity (YHWH). There is not even a hint that Paul is speaking of pre-human existence.

The Theos of v9 cannot be any God or generic God since HE is the THEOS of the gospel and the Son: 9 God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son... Nor would Paul be praying that any uncertain theos would help him to visit them, v10.

IF the theos of verses 16-17 are YHWH, (only YHWH has the power to bring salvation), then so it is also in 18-20: Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,e just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.� 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. The references to YHWH are seamless and YHWH cannot become suddenly nameless and unidentifiable in verse 20. I think your argument has failed and I will stick with PCE.

CONCLUSION: There is absolutely nothing in Romans 1:20 that could reasonably presented as proof of prehuman existence.

I was not trying to present proof by quoting this verse but only how PCE might be hidden in the words of scripture but unseen due to the created on earth bias of 4000 years.