Are God and Satan allies?

[Claire Evans]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.  

Then we have Jesus who said in John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Clearly Jesus is not being portrayed as being an ally of Satan.  If they were, God would be giving Satan the power to deceive because that is what He would have wanted.   This is not in accordance with the gospels.  The Lord's Prayer goes, "Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil."

This means that God would never use Satan to tempt us and will not purposely put evil in our way because Jesus is asking Him to deliver us from evil.  

How do we reconcile this? It's clear that it's because Jews do not believe the devil is evil.  To Jews, he is merely a "prosecuting attorney", there only to make people's lives miserable to lead us to God.
We also know that Satan is an omniscient being who is omnipresent.  Yet Jews reject this outright.  They see that as a negation of monotheism.  

There is a incongruity between the Satan in the New Testament and Satan in the OT.  Is it because the God in the OT is not the Father of Jesus?

[Yahu]

You are falsely assuming that all that you are writing about are references to Noah. You are saying he is a god as I proved with the Annunaki comment. It's clear that Noah was a Canaanite yet he curses his son/grandson for uncovering his nakedness? That is his fault. He was motherless.

The 'younger son' referenced above is 'grandson Canaan', not Ham! Canaan is the target of Noah's offense. 'Uncovering nakedness' is a term in Hebrew for any sexual shaming event. For example, having sex with a brother's wife was 'uncovering his nakedness'. It doesn't mean Noah was found naked but something shameful had been done to him.

But it says that Ham was the father of Canaan. How can you divorce the two? Doesn't "father of Canaan" mean the ruler of Canaan? The leader of a land? That is why Noah would curse it because it belongs to Ham.

You don't make any sense. Canaan is a person. He is the grandson of Noah. How can Noah be a Canaanite? Canaanite means descent of Canaan! Your statement is assinine. Noah is the father of ALL NATIONS.

NOAH is NOT a Canaanite but the Grandfather of Canaan, who was the father of the nation of Canaan, the Canaanites.

No father of Canaan does NOT means ruler of the land of Canaan. Ham was the father of MANY nations, the literal father of the man Canaan. There is no nation of Ham.

Gen 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush (Black -Ethiopia in the Greek), and Mizraim (Egypt), and Phut (Libya), and Canaan.
...
The sons of Ham were deeded Africa when the land was divided. Yes, the Canaanites were squatters. The Holy Land went to the priestly line.

15 And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,
17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,
18 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad.


Next:
Anunaki means 'Anu AND Ki' that is all it means.

The ONLY Anu that came from the heavens would be who you would know as Zeus. He was the later Anu that displaced Noah and yes, an angel is technically an alien, ie not born on earth.

There are two groups of Anunaki, the 70 'sons' and the 'gods'. Nebo for example isn't one of the 70, neither is Molech (Apollo). Ki had human children by Noah, then divine children by the later Anu, ie Zeus in the Greek.

Asherah was Na'amah, the wife of Noah that later had twins by the 2nd Anu. He is also called Euphrates (fruitfulness) and where the river gets its name. He was one of the four 'mighty waters', ie 'rivers' in Eden. Those were angels, not physical rivers that had charge over the garden.

She was the mother of Ham, Shem and Japeth, then (by their greek names) Apollo and Artemis. She was 1st the wife of Noah then the consort of Zeus/Hadad/Shachar the 2nd Anu.

Some references to Anu or EL pertain to Noah. Some pertain to Zeus. The children of Anu and Ki, sometimes reference the 70 nations and sometimes the divine twins.

[Zzyzx]

.

Your statement is assinine. Noah is the father of ALL NATIONS.

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[Claire Evans]

Well, let's ask ourselves: what is the source of all evil?

I assume that God, being the Alpha and Omega, is the source of evil. The shepherd who lets wolves into the sheep pen may not be the sheep killer but he is responsible.

God is not the source of evil. Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer, "...and deliver us from evil." Deliver us from something God created? Why would God create evil?

Why should it be amusing that Satan is omniscient? How can he tempt people today if not, according to the Bible?

Claire, the entire debate on the capabilities of Satan is amusing in that it is intelligence sprung from ignorance. What God has given God can take away, I am informed, and I should imagine that the gifts he awarded Satan can readily be retrieved. But obviously you espouse Dualism and given we've no cameras on the invisible, we can suppose what we want.

Why would God give Satan powers? So I am asking you hypothetically, if Satan is not omniscient, how can he tempt everyone on earth?

[McCulloch]

God is not the source of evil. Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer, "...and deliver us from evil." Deliver us from something God created? Why would God create evil?

But didn't God create everything that exists? If God created everything, how can there be anything be evil? If the good and perfect God created everything, then either evil things do not exist or God created evil things.

[OnceConvinced]

God is not the source of evil.

According to God he is indeed the source of evil:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.

Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer, "...and deliver us from evil." Deliver us from something God created?

Indeed. God many times sends evil upon people, so it would make sense to pray to him not to do that:

Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Joshua 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things.

Judges 9:23
Then God sent an evil spirit

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33 ...Behold, this evil is of the LORD;

2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

2 Kings 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place

2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof...

Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them

Jeremiah 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil

Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Jeremiah 45:5 ...behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD:

Jeremiah 49:37 ...I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:

Micah 1:12 .... evil came down from the LORD

Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil

Why would God create evil?

You would need to ask God that. After all he is the one who created Satan knowing full well what an abomination he would become.

Why would God give Satan powers?

That is a good question, but it was God who originally made Satan guard over his throne. But who else would have given Satan powers?

So I am asking you hypothetically, if Satan is not omniscient, how can he tempt everyone on earth?

So either Satan is god like or he is not omniscient. From what I can see in the bible, Satan is merely an angel so cannot be Omni-present. Nor can he be all-knowing. He cannot be tempting everyone at the same time. So to say he is, is clearly a fantasy. It's just not possible for Satan do that unless he is a god.

It seems more rational to me to conclude that Satan is imaginary.

[marco]

God is not the source of evil. Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer, "...and deliver us from evil." Deliver us from something God created? Why would God create evil?

Well he competently managed to create flaws in the earth that kill millions of people. I presume he made the "bad" angels. He planted a tree in a perfect garden that led to Adam's moral destruction. "Deliver us from evil" would presumably cover the circumstance of a harmful tree being put in one's back lawn.

Why would God give Satan powers? So I am asking you hypothetically, if Satan is not omniscient, how can he tempt everyone on earth?

My human knowledge is unequal to the task of guessing why God made Satan or why he placed a serpent in his beautiful garden. I assume we are supposing dualism: God and Satan are co-eternal. Who knows?

Omniscience has nothing to do with successful tempting as can be seen from numerous situations here on earth, where people manage to tempt other people.

[Claire Evans]

God is not the source of evil. Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer, "...and deliver us from evil." Deliver us from something God created? Why would God create evil?

But didn't God create everything that exists? If God created everything, how can there be anything be evil? If the good and perfect God created everything, then either evil things do not exist or God created evil things.

Absolutely not in my belief. Why would God create a flea that spreads diseases? There is a battle between good and evil. Therefore, wouldn't it make sense for there to be creations from both good and evil sources, i.e., God and Satan respectively?

[Claire Evans]

God is not the source of evil.

According to God he is indeed the source of evil:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.

You mean, according to Isaiah. In order to promote Yahweh as the supreme god, Isaiah had to say God created all things, even evil. However, "evil" in this Isaiah passage actually means calamity.

https://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

However, causing calamity is still not good.

Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer, "...and deliver us from evil." Deliver us from something God created?

Indeed. God many times sends evil upon people, so it would make sense to pray to him not to do that:

Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Joshua 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things.

Judges 9:23
Then God sent an evil spirit

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

1 Kings 14:10
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

2 Kings 6:33 ...Behold, this evil is of the LORD;

2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

2 Kings 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place

2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof...

Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them

Jeremiah 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil

Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Jeremiah 45:5 ...behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD:

Jeremiah 49:37 ...I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:

Micah 1:12 .... evil came down from the LORD

Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil

Well, Yahweh in the OT is not the Father of Jesus. It explain the contradictions. See if you like:

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy ... ient-truth

Why would God create evil?

You would need to ask God that. After all he is the one who created Satan knowing full well what an abomination he would become.

The Genesis story is from the pagan Sumerian creation story. The Hebrews just adopted it as their own. Therefore the Father didn't create Satan. If He had, I'd have nothing to do with Him. That would Him unforgivable.

Why would God give Satan powers?

That is a good question, but it was God who originally made Satan guard over his throne. But who else would have given Satan powers?

Let's see if religious dualism makes more sense:

"In religion, dualism means the belief in two supreme opposed powers or gods, or sets of divine or demonic beings, that caused the world to exist."

This espouses that Satan was not created but always existed as a powerful "god" in opposition to God. There are opposites in everything in life. Positive, negatives, anode and cathodes. Therefore we can imagine God and Satan battling on earth for the souls of mankind. If God was omnipotent, why is there a struggle? What would be the victory of Christ? It's like a marathon swimmer crowing victory when they beat a toddler in the pool. In other words, there is no victory. I believe the only thing that makes God more powerful is the due to the victory of Christ. Without Christ, it would be like an impasse.

Does this make more sense or does the thought of God creating Satan then sending His Son to defeat Satan make more sense?

So I am asking you hypothetically, if Satan is not omniscient, how can he tempt everyone on earth?

So either Satan is god like or he is not omniscient. From what I can see in the bible, Satan is merely an angel so cannot be Omni-present. Nor can he be all-knowing. He cannot be tempting everyone at the same time. So to say he is, is clearly a fantasy. It's just not possible for Satan do that unless he is a god.

It seems more rational to me to conclude that Satan is imaginary.

You are referring to the OT. Satan has powers like God so he is a "god". If Satan is an angel, he couldn't tempt anyone at all which is contradicted in the NT. Angels can't be in the same place at once.

If we take into account what the OT say about Satan, then it would be irrational. However, I have offered an alternative viewpoint.

[Claire Evans]

God is not the source of evil. Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer, "...and deliver us from evil." Deliver us from something God created? Why would God create evil?

Well he competently managed to create flaws in the earth that kill millions of people. I presume he made the "bad" angels. He planted a tree in a perfect garden that led to Adam's moral destruction. "Deliver us from evil" would presumably cover the circumstance of a harmful tree being put in one's back lawn.

The Genesis creation story is from the Sumerian pagan story. In other words, it didn't happen. Why must you assume God created the flaws in the earth?

Why would God give Satan powers? So I am asking you hypothetically, if Satan is not omniscient, how can he tempt everyone on earth?

My human knowledge is unequal to the task of guessing why God made Satan or why he placed a serpent in his beautiful garden. I assume we are supposing dualism: God and Satan are co-eternal. Who knows?

This is interesting that you mention dualism. I believe in religious dualism.

"In religion, dualism means the belief in two supreme opposed powers or gods, or sets of divine or demonic beings, that caused the world to exist."

This espouses that Satan was not created but always existed as a powerful "god" in opposition to God. There are opposites in everything in life. Positive, negatives, anode and cathodes. Therefore we can imagine God and Satan battling on earth for the souls of mankind. If God was omnipotent, why is there a struggle? What would be the victory of Christ? It's like a marathon swimmer crowing victory when they beat a toddler in the pool. In other words, there is no victory. I believe the only thing that makes God more powerful is the due to the victory of Christ. Without Christ, it would be like an impasse.

Omniscience has nothing to do with successful tempting as can be seen from numerous situations here on earth, where people manage to tempt other people.

I didn't say that omniscience hinges on successful tempting. Even according to the Bible, Satan tempts but doesn't always succeed. Look at the wilderness story. It just means that Satan knows everything including the thought of humankind.

[marco]

The Genesis creation story is from the Sumerian pagan story. In other words, it didn't happen. Why must you assume God created the flaws in the earth?

Yes, I have studied some Sumerian.
And I don't assume God made the earth's flaws but when I am arguing with the axiom that Yahweh exists, then a consequence is that what we have is what God gave us.

This is interesting that you mention dualism. I believe in religious dualism.

Therefore we can imagine God and Satan battling on earth for the souls of mankind. If God was omnipotent, why is there a struggle? What would be the victory of Christ? It's like a marathon swimmer crowing victory when they beat a toddler in the pool. In other words, there is no victory. I believe the only thing that makes God more powerful is due to the victory of Christ. Without Christ, it would be like an impasse.

That an interesting unprovable take on existence. Oddly we see more evidence of Satan's interaction with us than God's. Is Satan winning, then, despite Christ's apparent victory?

I didn't say that omniscience hinges on successful tempting. Even according to the Bible, Satan tempts but doesn't always succeed. Look at the wilderness story. It just means that Satan knows everything including the thought of humankind.

The wilderness story, an unwitnessed account of Jesus meeting Satan, is best taken as figurative.

It's not clear to me which of the two deities, evil or good, created what is. Or is that a question beyond the scope of dualism?