Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

[polonius]

Regarding sin, JW posted:

No, it was a provision for the Adamic or inherited sin of those that would have or will recognize the value of that sacrifice.

RESPONSE: This subtopic takes the present dialogue in another direction. So much so, that I believe it appropriate to create a separate thread on the legend regarding the Original sin, man's guilt, and any need for redemption.

The founding legend of Judaism written in its present form in 800-700 BC begins with the story of creation in seven days and the relationship between God and man and sin.

In the beginning:

Scientists estimate that the hominid lineage diverged from the ape lineage 5 to 8 million years ago. Homo sapiens, the species to which we belong, has existed for about 100,000 years.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat06.html

So at the very onset, we have a vast disagreement between the Bibles seven days of creation account and what science tells us.

Lets, by way of overview, take a brief look at Bible truth regarding mans nature.

It all begins with an explanation as to why things die.

[polonius]

So at the very onset, we have a vast disagreement between the Bibles seven days of creation account and what science tells us.

What an interesting question, Jehovah's Witnesses are not creationists so we don't believe the creative days were literally 7 24-hour periods. That said, this isn't the science and religion sub-forum so I won't concern myself with so-called disagreement between the bible and the scientific concensus on certain timelines.

The fact is that the bible states that God created all living things, there is nothing at all in scripture that suggests this fact is fictional in nature.

JW

RESPONSE:

JW admits

I won't concern myself with so-called disagreement between the bible and the scientific consensus on certain timelines.

Perhaps that's because the first seven chapters of the scripture are themselves fictional in nature.

[polonius]

And the Catholic Encyclopedia (on-line) tells us that in addition to Supernatural graces before the Fall, humans had "Preternatural" gifts as well.

"It may be well here to say a few words on the preternatural (relatively supernatural) gifts bestowed on our first parents, which are sometimes confused with the supernatural gifts properly so called. In the beginning God exempted man from the inherent weakness of his nature, i.e. the infirmities of the flesh and the consequent infirmities of the spirit. He made man immortal, impassible, free from concupiscence and ignorance, sinless, and lord of the earth.

Unfortunately man lost those too by sinning. Baptism is suppose to restore the supernatural gifts but the preternatural gifts are lost forever.

Does anyone believe this story?

[JehovahsWitness]

Perhaps that's because the first seven chapters of the scripture are themselves fictional in nature.

You have yet to present any biblical evidence supporting this claim.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

And the Catholic Encyclopedia (on-line) tells us that in addition to Supernatural graces before the Fall, humans had "Preternatural" gifts as well.

"It may be well here to say a few words on the preternatural (relatively supernatural) gifts bestowed on our first parents, which are sometimes confused with the supernatural gifts properly so called. In the beginning God exempted man from the inherent weakness of his nature, i.e. the infirmities of the flesh and the consequent infirmities of the spirit. He made man immortal, impassible, free from concupiscence and ignorance, sinless, and lord of the earth.

Unfortunately man lost those too by sinning. Baptism is suppose to restore the supernatural gifts but the preternatural gifts are lost forever.

Does anyone believe this story?

I can only presume some Catholics do. There is quite a lot in there that I personally disagree with, notably that man was created "immortal".

JW

[onewithhim]

Regarding sin, JW posted:

No, it was a provision for the Adamic or inherited sin of those that would have or will recognize the value of that sacrifice.

RESPONSE: This subtopic takes the present dialogue in another direction. So much so, that I believe it appropriate to create a separate thread on the legend regarding the Original sin, man's guilt, and any need for redemption.

The founding legend of Judaism written in its present form in 800-700 BC begins with the story of creation in seven days and the relationship between God and man and sin.

In the beginning:

Scientists estimate that the hominid lineage diverged from the ape lineage 5 to 8 million years ago. Homo sapiens, the species to which we belong, has existed for about 100,000 years.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat06.html

So at the very onset, we have a vast disagreement between the Bibles seven days of creation account and what science tells us.

Lets, by way of overview, take a brief look at Bible truth regarding mans nature.

It all begins with an explanation as to why things die.

I'm not sure why you brought up man's supposed evolution from an ape to a man.

There is no historical NOR Biblical support for that idea. The "missing link" has not been found yet, to be confirmed according to the Scientific Method.

Anyway, the Bible does not say that the earth and everything on it was created in six 24-hour days. The people who favor that ridiculous idea are bending over backwards to try and mash their ideas into the parameters of the Bible's story. If the subject was to be scrutinized, it is easy to see the the 6 creative days were of undetermined length.

God did not create the Grand Canyon, as we see it today, instantaneously. That idea is absurd. The Bible does not tell us that the earth is only thousands of years old. It says nothing about how old it is, so we are wise if we accept Science's assessment of the earth's age---5 billion years.

What is your point about the concept of original sin?

[onewithhim]

So at the very onset, we have a vast disagreement between the Bibles seven days of creation account and what science tells us.

What an interesting question, Jehovah's Witnesses are not creationists so we don't believe the creative days were literally 7 24-hour periods. That said, this isn't the science and religion sub-forum so I won't concern myself with so-called disagreement between the bible and the scientific concensus on certain timelines.

The fact is that the bible states that God created all living things, there is nothing at all in scripture that suggests this fact is fictional in nature.

JW

RESPONSE:

JW admits

I won't concern myself with so-called disagreement between the bible and the scientific consensus on certain timelines.

Perhaps that's because the first seven chapters of the scripture are themselves fictional in nature.

Exactly why do you say that the first 7 chapters in Genesis are fictional? We have already told you that we don't believe that the 6 creative days are each 24 hours in length.

[onewithhim]

And the Catholic Encyclopedia (on-line) tells us that in addition to Supernatural graces before the Fall, humans had "Preternatural" gifts as well.

"It may be well here to say a few words on the preternatural (relatively supernatural) gifts bestowed on our first parents, which are sometimes confused with the supernatural gifts properly so called. In the beginning God exempted man from the inherent weakness of his nature, i.e. the infirmities of the flesh and the consequent infirmities of the spirit. He made man immortal, impassible, free from concupiscence and ignorance, sinless, and lord of the earth.

Unfortunately man lost those too by sinning. Baptism is suppose to restore the supernatural gifts but the preternatural gifts are lost forever.

Does anyone believe this story?

Hardly. You wonder how someone could contradict themselves so badly in just a few sentences. How could humans be created "immortal," and yet we die? "Immortal" means that they CANNOT die. So how could man lose anything by ANY action?

Man was indeed created "free from ignorance, sinless, and lord of the earth," but he was not created with "an inherent weakness of his nature, i.e. infirmities of the flesh and spirit." He was created perfect, without any inherent weaknesses. Why would God create an inferior product? (Deuteronomy 32:4)

Anyway, the excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia is very confusing and jumbled. I doubt that anyone can understand what they were trying to say (and probably they themselves don't understand it).

[polonius]

But the interesting thing is that a number of people base their belief system (or faith) on this fiction.

What in the context of the bible indicates to you that the creation account is allegorical or fictional in nature?

JW

RESPONSE: There are two contradictory sequences.

[polonius]

And the Catholic Encyclopedia (on-line) tells us that in addition to Supernatural graces before the Fall, humans had "Preternatural" gifts as well.

"It may be well here to say a few words on the preternatural (relatively supernatural) gifts bestowed on our first parents, which are sometimes confused with the supernatural gifts properly so called. In the beginning God exempted man from the inherent weakness of his nature, i.e. the infirmities of the flesh and the consequent infirmities of the spirit. He made man immortal, impassible, free from concupiscence and ignorance, sinless, and lord of the earth.

Unfortunately man lost those too by sinning. Baptism is suppose to restore the supernatural gifts but the preternatural gifts are lost forever.

Does anyone believe this story?

Claire Evens posted

Hardly. You wonder how someone could contradict themselves so badly in just a few sentences. How could humans be created "immortal," and yet we die? "Immortal" means that they CANNOT die. So how could man lose anything by ANY action?

RESPONSE: Perhaps you would want to read the bible. Nothing died until death entered the world because of man's sin.
Romans 5: 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned"

Note: We should therefore be thankful to our first parents for sinning. The world must have been getting awfully crowded if nothing died until someone sinned and started death.


Claire Evans posted

Man was indeed created "free from ignorance, sinless, and lord of the earth," but he was not created with "an inherent weakness of his nature, i.e. infirmities of the flesh and spirit." He was created perfect, without any inherent weaknesses. Why would God create an inferior product? (Deuteronomy 32:4)

RESPONSE: The very fact that man is a created being means that he is imperfect. Otherwise, he'd be God.

Claire Evans posted:

Anyway, the excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia is very confusing and jumbled. I doubt that anyone can understand what they were trying to say (and probably they themselves don't understand it).

RESPONSE: It's clear to me. Perhaps some teacher or librarian can assist you in understanding it .

[polonius]

Perhaps that's because the first seven chapters of the scripture are themselves fictional in nature.

You have yet to present any biblical evidence supporting this claim.

JW

RESPONSE:

I have. Perhaps youve overlooked it.

See:
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/fi ... bible.html

and



As someone commented:

"The historical saga contained in the Bible -- from Abraham's encounter with God and his journey to Canaan, to Moses' deliverance of the children of Israel from bondage, to the rise and fall of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah --was not a miraculous revelation, but a brilliant product of the human imagination."