Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’�
1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Post #2
Yes...both Jesus and Paul were wrong about the timing of Jesus 2nd coming.
Either that, or the Gospel authors put a prediction on Jesus lips that was just plain wrong.
Consider the implications:
1) That Jesus was not, could not have been "God" because God would not have been wrong about such a thing, in fact, God by definition is not wrong about anything.
and/or
2) That the Bible writers were wrong, and thus the Bible is not perfect, inerrant nor is it infallible.
And so, with Jesus (despite his merits as a prophet/teacher of God's righteousness) we are left with a "Messiah" who has not ushered in the Messianic age the first time around, and a "God" who was wrong about the timing of his "2nd time around".
Either that, or the Gospel authors put a prediction on Jesus lips that was just plain wrong.
Consider the implications:
1) That Jesus was not, could not have been "God" because God would not have been wrong about such a thing, in fact, God by definition is not wrong about anything.
and/or
2) That the Bible writers were wrong, and thus the Bible is not perfect, inerrant nor is it infallible.
And so, with Jesus (despite his merits as a prophet/teacher of God's righteousness) we are left with a "Messiah" who has not ushered in the Messianic age the first time around, and a "God" who was wrong about the timing of his "2nd time around".
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4266
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 187 times
- Been thanked: 480 times
Re: Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Post #3Curious, which generation do you think he was talking about and why?polonius.advice wrote: Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
Post #4
RESPONSE:Elijah John wrote: Yes...both Jesus and Paul were wrong about the timing of Jesus 2nd coming.
Either that, or the Gospel authors put a prediction on Jesus lips that was just plain wrong.
Consider the implications:
1) That Jesus was not, could not have been "God" because God would not have been wrong about such a thing, in fact, God by definition is not wrong about anything.
and/or
2) That the Bible writers were wrong, and thus the Bible is not perfect, inerrant nor is it infallible.
And so, with Jesus (despite his merits as a prophet/teacher of God's righteousness) we are left with a "Messiah" who has not ushered in the Messianic age the first time around, and a "God" who was wrong about the timing of his "2nd time around".
Yes. What you are concluding is correct. Since the second coming prophecies appear is a number of writings, it really can't be blamed on a single error. Rather a pattern of errors (or common fiction) which only are explained by the non-divinity of Jesus.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 22195
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 854 times
- Been thanked: 1232 times
- Contact:
Re: Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Post #5[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
No. What you are concluding is incorrect....both Jesus and Paul were right about the timing of Jesus 2nd coming. Most people interpret Jesus' words wrongly and thus come to an incorrect conclusion. I have explained this topic clearly in an earlier post here . Feel free to consult the pages for details.
JW
No. What you are concluding is incorrect....both Jesus and Paul were right about the timing of Jesus 2nd coming. Most people interpret Jesus' words wrongly and thus come to an incorrect conclusion. I have explained this topic clearly in an earlier post here . Feel free to consult the pages for details.
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Post #6The words are clear. He is talking to his audience about his audience. And he is wrong in what he is alleged to have said.2timothy316 wrote:
Curious, which generation do you think he was talking about and why?
But of course it is hard for most people to recall what has been said far less quote verbatim after a number of years. It was a good thing to say to get people's attention. I had a priest who used to say, unfailingly, that many in front of him would suffer in the flames of hell. I suppose he had toothache and that gave him some relief.
Re: Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Post #7RESPONSE: Of course you are free to write whatever you what and then quote your writings as proof of whatever you want.JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
No. What you are concluding is incorrect....both Jesus and Paul were right about the timing of Jesus 2nd coming. Most people interpret Jesus' words wrongly and thus come to an incorrect conclusion. I have explained this topic clearly in an earlier post here . Feel free to consult the pages for details.
JW
But the word so Christ and words of Paul are clearly as follows:
Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
(Paul) 1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
It just didn't happen!
- Divine Insight
- Savant
- Posts: 18070
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
- Location: Here & Now
- Been thanked: 19 times
Re: Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Post #8As Marco has already mentioned he was clearly referring to the people he was talking to directly. So there is no question what generation he was speaking to.2timothy316 wrote:Curious, which generation do you think he was talking about and why?polonius.advice wrote: Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
He also told other people in other places in the scriptures that they would not see death before his return.
So his prophesies have either failed, or he actually did return within that generation, take the people he was interested in with him, and left. And we would then be the descendants of the rejects.
Anyone who is still expecting Jesus to return today wasn't paying attention to what these scriptures have to say on the matter.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
-
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Post #9Many years ago, I believed in Biblical inerrancy, and in the Divnity of Christ. I was not looking to DISbelieve. I happened upon those verses in question, thought about them and long story short, my faith in Biblical innerrancy and in the Divinity of Christ was shattered.JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]
No. What you are concluding is incorrect....both Jesus and Paul were right about the timing of Jesus 2nd coming. Most people interpret Jesus' words wrongly and thus come to an incorrect conclusion. I have explained this topic clearly in an earlier post here . Feel free to consult the pages for details.
JW
Those verses made a skeptic out of me. I still believe in God, YHVH God, but do not believe that Jesus is that God.
And so far I have not encountered any convincing arguments otherwise, not from Evangelicals, not from Jehovah's Witnesses.
It could be that I do not understand the convoluted explanations offered by those two groups....but I don't think so.
In this case, plain meaning seems far more convincing, as do the arguments of Polonius, Marco, and DI.
It seem the simple truth of the matter is that the NT authors, Jesus own disciples, perhaps even Jesus himself expected his 2nd coming in the lifetime of his apostles.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
Re: Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Post #10[Replying to post 9 by Elijah John]
"Many years ago, I believed in Biblical inerrancy, and in the Divnity of Christ. I was not looking to DISbelieve. I happened upon those verses in question, thought about them and long story short, my faith in Biblical innerrancy and in the Divinity of Christ was shattered.
Those verses made a skeptic out of me. I still believe in God, YHVH God, but do not believe that Jesus is that God. "
Many of us have been there done that.
Seeing that there are too many iffs, it might be wiser leaving it at
'I do not know'?
What is intereasting that the worrier God YHWH is more appealing.
"Many years ago, I believed in Biblical inerrancy, and in the Divnity of Christ. I was not looking to DISbelieve. I happened upon those verses in question, thought about them and long story short, my faith in Biblical innerrancy and in the Divinity of Christ was shattered.
Those verses made a skeptic out of me. I still believe in God, YHVH God, but do not believe that Jesus is that God. "
Many of us have been there done that.
Seeing that there are too many iffs, it might be wiser leaving it at
'I do not know'?
What is intereasting that the worrier God YHWH is more appealing.