Are God and Satan allies?

[Claire Evans]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.

Then we have Jesus who said in John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Clearly Jesus is not being portrayed as being an ally of Satan. If they were, God would be giving Satan the power to deceive because that is what He would have wanted. This is not in accordance with the gospels. The Lord's Prayer goes, "Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil."

This means that God would never use Satan to tempt us and will not purposely put evil in our way because Jesus is asking Him to deliver us from evil.

How do we reconcile this? It's clear that it's because Jews do not believe the devil is evil. To Jews, he is merely a "prosecuting attorney", there only to make people's lives miserable to lead us to God.
We also know that Satan is an omniscient being who is omnipresent. Yet Jews reject this outright. They see that as a negation of monotheism.

There is a incongruity between the Satan in the New Testament and Satan in the OT. Is it because the God in the OT is not the Father of Jesus?

[Claire Evans]

The Genesis creation story is from the Sumerian pagan story. In other words, it didn't happen. Why must you assume God created the flaws in the earth?

Yes, I have studied some Sumerian.
And I don't assume God made the earth's flaws but when I am arguing with the axiom that Yahweh exists, then a consequence is that what we have is what God gave us.

Yahweh is not a supreme deity nor the creator of life. You leave Satan out of the equation. What if he is responsible for the flaws?

This is interesting that you mention dualism. I believe in religious dualism.

Therefore we can imagine God and Satan battling on earth for the souls of mankind. If God was omnipotent, why is there a struggle? What would be the victory of Christ? It's like a marathon swimmer crowing victory when they beat a toddler in the pool. In other words, there is no victory. I believe the only thing that makes God more powerful is due to the victory of Christ. Without Christ, it would be like an impasse.

That an interesting unprovable take on existence. Oddly we see more evidence of Satan's interaction with us than God's. Is Satan winning, then, despite Christ's apparent victory?

We see more of Satan's interaction with us because most allow him to have power. Even indifference gives Satan power. I believe that without mankind's sin, Satan would have no power. However, someone who gives God power in their lives, Satan is powerless. Unfortunately, more people give Satan power than they do God. We believe the victory is that by the resurrection of Christ, souls can be redeemed by sin being cleansed. That takes away the power of Satan. So the victory of Christ does not mean victory of the world but of souls. We also see time as linear but there is no time in the spiritual world. I believe what is in Revelation has already happened.

And according to Revelation, Satan will lose the battle against Christ.

I didn't say that omniscience hinges on successful tempting. Even according to the Bible, Satan tempts but doesn't always succeed. Look at the wilderness story. It just means that Satan knows everything including the thought of humankind.

The wilderness story, an unwitnessed account of Jesus meeting Satan, is best taken as figurative.

It's not clear to me which of the two deities, evil or good, created what is. Or is that a question beyond the scope of dualism?

I agree that it is most likely figurative but it is saying that Jesus was tempted in his life.

When looking at creation, what does it make you feel? I can't see God creating a kitten and also making a python, for example. I can't see God making fleas. It would be purely to make us miserable. I believe this world is a combination of Satan and God's creation. We see that there is a battle between god and evil which religious dualism espouses. It is observable.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 71 by Claire Evans]

" I believe this world is a combination of Satan and God's creation. We see that there is a battle between god and evil which religious dualism espouses. It is observable."

We can not have two creators. If we were going to have two what's stopping us fom having 100.

Evil is perversion of good.

[marco]

Yahweh is not a supreme deity nor the creator of life. You leave Satan out of the equation. What if he is responsible for the flaws?

I agree about Yahweh but a few billion don't. I find the dual architecture of God and Satan a bit too much to accept.

We see more of Satan's interaction with us because most allow him to have power. Even indifference gives Satan power. I believe that without mankind's sin, Satan would have no power.

This reminds me of the opponent of Hercules, Antaeus, whose strength increased every time he fell to the ground, since the earth was his mother. Satan growing stronger by our sin is mere poetry in the same way that God weeping over our transgressions or angels becoming ecstatic over a single sinner saying sorry is imaginative sentimentality. It reduces the metaphysical universe to a circus.

And according to Revelation, Satan will lose the battle against Christ.

Ah, yes, there is Revelation. If we know the end of the film why bother?

When looking at creation, what does it make you feel? I can't see God creating a kitten and also making a python, for example.

This time you're picking up William Blake's theme. Did God who made the lamb also create the tiger? When I look around me at the empty planets I wonder why anyone would have thought they were purposefully created. When I consider our dusty insignificance in time and space I wonder what our alien cousins are discussing just now.

[marco]

We can not have two creators. If we were going to have two what's stopping us fom having 100.

And what are the objections to this possibility? If we look around and deduce things were created, why should we suppose there was just one architect involved? We see beautiful renaissance paintings and we don't conclude they were all by the same artist.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 71 by Claire Evans]

" I believe this world is a combination of Satan and God's creation. We see that there is a battle between god and evil which religious dualism espouses. It is observable."

We can not have two creators. If we were going to have two what's stopping us fom having 100.

Evil is perversion of good.

It's not what is convenient for us to believe. We know Satan has the powers that God has like omniscience and omnipresence. So a powerful being like that can't have the power to create things? If God is the sole creator, why did He create fleas?

[Claire Evans]

Yahweh is not a supreme deity nor the creator of life. You leave Satan out of the equation. What if he is responsible for the flaws?

I agree about Yahweh but a few billion don't. I find the dual architecture of God and Satan a bit too much to accept.

Just throwing the idea out there.

We see more of Satan's interaction with us because most allow him to have power. Even indifference gives Satan power. I believe that without mankind's sin, Satan would have no power.

This reminds me of the opponent of Hercules, Antaeus, whose strength increased every time he fell to the ground, since the earth was his mother. Satan growing stronger by our sin is mere poetry in the same way that God weeping over our transgressions or angels becoming ecstatic over a single sinner saying sorry is imaginative sentimentality. It reduces the metaphysical universe to a circus.

The battle between good and evil would create a mess, no? It doesn't matter what it does to the metaphysical universe. We have to admit we don't understand everything.

And according to Revelation, Satan will lose the battle against Christ.

Ah, yes, there is Revelation. If we know the end of the film why bother?

It's not for entertainment's sake. It is meant to be a warning.

When looking at creation, what does it make you feel? I can't see God creating a kitten and also making a python, for example.

This time you're picking up William Blake's theme. Did God who made the lamb also create the tiger? When I look around me at the empty planets I wonder why anyone would have thought they were purposefully created. When I consider our dusty insignificance in time and space I wonder what our alien cousins are discussing just now.

But a tiger doesn't fill one with horror. It is not hideous. Why did God create a flea?

Perhaps the planets were made for the balance of the solar system. And we are assuming the non gaseous planets are unoccupied or never were.

[marco]

We know Satan has the powers that God has like omniscience and omnipresence. So a powerful being like that can't have the power to create things? If God is the sole creator, why did He create fleas?

We have acquired an extensive knowledge of the elusive Satan. Did he supply these details himself?
You assume that the purpose of the flea is an entirely negative one; like many other creatures it is a parasite. As far as we know it lives simply to live, but then so do many people. You are building into god goodness and purpose, when all that's needed is an author for creation. Having created, he may well have vanished supernaturally. There is no continuing evidence of his interest.

[marco]

The battle between good and evil would create a mess, no? It doesn't matter what it does to the metaphysical universe. We have to admit we don't understand everything.

I can imagine a great battle such as Ragnark of Norse mythology. I don't know what this suggests, though.
I am most willing to admit that far from knowing everything, the total sum of my knowledge is a bagatelle. As a little boy I was told that, to get an idea of my importance, I should throw a stone in a lake and wait to see how long it affected the water.

It's not for entertainment's sake. It is meant to be a warning.

Warnings such as Look out! Fire! Are usually immediately clear. Revelation is no revelation at all, for we can take as many meanings as there are readers. The only warning it gives me is: "Don't believe a word of it.""

But a tiger doesn't fill one with horror. It is not hideous.

I believe a reporter held the same view and continued to take pictures of an approaching tiger until the beast disabused him of his optimism. Blake wondered why a good God could invent a beast that lived to kill and devour other creatures. He possibly forgot that God made man too - but at least he gave man the choice of meat or vegetable.

Our remit is the allegiance between God and Satan. For me it is enough to speculate on one creator, never mind a variety.

[dio9]

We have the story of Job:

"One day when the sons of God came before Jehovah, Satan came with them. Jehovah said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Satan answered, "From going back and forth on the earth, and walking up and down on it." And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job? For there is no man like him on the ea rth, blameless and upright, who reveres God and avoids evil." Satan answered, "But is it for nothing that Job reveres God? Have you not yourself made a hedge all about him, about his household, and about all that he has? You have blessed whatever he does, and his possessions have greatly increased. But just put out your hand now and take away all he has; he certainly will curse you to your face." Then Jehovah said to Satan, "See, everything that he has is in your power; only do not lay hands on Job himself." So Satan left the presence of Jehovah."

Clearly Satan and God are allies in this story.

Then we have Jesus who said in John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Clearly Jesus is not being portrayed as being an ally of Satan. If they were, God would be giving Satan the power to deceive because that is what He would have wanted. This is not in accordance with the gospels. The Lord's Prayer goes, "Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil."

This means that God would never use Satan to tempt us and will not purposely put evil in our way because Jesus is asking Him to deliver us from evil.

How do we reconcile this? It's clear that it's because Jews do not believe the devil is evil. To Jews, he is merely a "prosecuting attorney", there only to make people's lives miserable to lead us to God.
We also know that Satan is an omniscient being who is omnipresent. Yet Jews reject this outright. They see that as a negation of monotheism.

There is a incongruity between the Satan in the New Testament and Satan in the OT. Is it because the God in the OT is not the Father of Jesus?

All that just to argue Marcianism? I thought that was settled in the 2nd century. That would mean there are two Gods ,and that is unacceptable for the one God school of thought. We don't have an old God of wrath and a new God of love . God's passion is what we have in both wrath and love. God gets wrathful only because he passionately loves humanity. Our God is a God of pathos passion not an impassionate unmoved mover of the philosophers. Surly you know what passion is a thing of the heart passions beyond greater than more powerful than intellect and will .

[Claire Evans]

We know Satan has the powers that God has like omniscience and omnipresence. So a powerful being like that can't have the power to create things? If God is the sole creator, why did He create fleas?

We have acquired an extensive knowledge of the elusive Satan. Did he supply these details himself?
You assume that the purpose of the flea is an entirely negative one; like many other creatures it is a parasite. As far as we know it lives simply to live, but then so do many people. You are building into god goodness and purpose, when all that's needed is an author for creation. Having created, he may well have vanished supernaturally. There is no continuing evidence of his interest.

Why do you assume Satan is elusive? There are Satanists. References to him are all around us.


But why make a creature simply to live when it causes misery? I think comparing fleas to people is erroneous. Humans do have a purpose. They may just not nurture their potential.

Being covert does not make Satan elusive. In fact, in order to ensnare people, isn't it clever to work under the guise of good? We might as well say God is elusive. The probability of Satan existing is as good as God.