Atheism, Group No.4

[E.G]

[center]Atheism, Group No.4 [/center]

I have presented previously three groups of atheist, through these ongoing intelligent discussions a fourth group was presented, which I suggest to be another form of “emotional reaction�
The first three groups were arguably presented in Post 1: Sun Sep 11, 2016, titled: Atheism, the art of defying logic, reason and commonsense.

I would like to state first that the purpose of my open dialog is in line with the objective of this site debate format through civil and engaging debate in pursuit of knowledge and truth. There is nothing I would like to gain personally, and I have no intention to “defeat� others’ opinions, but rather, through dialog, the truth may reveal itself.

The discussion here will focus mainly on group -4

The scientific argument:

Mass can neither be created nor destroyed… and so the universe's entire mass can be concentrated at one point. Without God

- This concept is applied to any system closed to all transfers…an isolated system.
- The concept of mass conservation was discovered in chemical reactions by Antoine Lavoisier in the late 18th century, the closely related concept of matter conservation was found to hold good in chemistry to such high approximation, it failed only for the high energies treated by the later refinements of relativity theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass

The very fact that the theory failed for the high energies based on modern theory of relativity can be seen as an indicative of the presence of a higher power (energy, some prefer to name it “God�).

I humbly suggest you are missing at least one group.
4- Those who decided to research the claims made by religion and found them to be unsupportable. This group has found no compelling reason to believe in any god based on all evidence so far.

Claims made by religion? Who made those claims? are they trustworthy, and how can a claim made by a “religion� relate directly to the question of the existence, or nonexistence of God?

This group has found no compelling reason to believe in any god based on all evidence so far

what are those all evidence in your post? This is not fitting nicely within a “ Reasoning rebuttal�, rather emotional.

“there are an ever increasing number of folks who aren't constrained by the beliefs born in the Dark Ages, when Judeo-Christianity murdered science along with every man woman and child who disagreed with what didn't make sense in the Bible.�

This argument also could be classified as "emotional", since there is no evidence from Biblical verses requiring killing “science� or those who disagree. This act was taken by people who had their own motive, using religion as a cover. Therefore, this argument is rather week and frankly, irrelevant.

I propose that if these "people of God" would just quit using their religious beliefs as a cudgel 'Cause "You'll believe, or you'll burn in Hell"

Once again, this argument proves the point that there are these groups of crooks, within Christianity, who had their own motive, using religion as a cover.
The Biblical teaching (taken directly from the Bible) is, “I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.� John 10:10
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.� Matthew 11:28-30.

The question is, why some do allow themselves to listen and fall in a trap set by the crooks and those whom the Bible describes as, "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.� Matthew 7:15.

I would suggest that the overwhelming number of Christians "believe" in Christianity because they were indoctrinated into it, and they have simply bought into the teachings that if they dare to question this God or doubt him they will be cast into eternal damnation for their insubordination. I believe most Christians keep the faith out of fear of damnation, or the lust for the promised reward.

Scientifically, you need to provide a credible statistic supporting the claim “the overwhelming number of Christians�, on the other hand, I would agree with the general premise of your statement.

A classic example of “Group 4�:

My family is very religious, I have not had negative personal encounters with religion. I keep my beliefs to myself. I will dabble anonymously on the internet not for fame or fortune, but simplly to have an intellectually stimulating conversation. I don't fit into any of the categories you listed. Perhaps it's time you start revising your position.
I am an atheist because after years of biblical study I started finding issues with the written word itself. To me it became a self contradiction. it was no longer logically compatible. Yet it was not here where I gave up on religion and spirituality. I had just posited to myself that the written word had been lost to time and just trust in God to show me the way. This led to varies religious and/or spiritual beliefs. In the end one by one they continually failed in terms of logical and reason. At this point it would be intellectually dishonest for me to be a believer.

I would like to ask if you had a chance to examine the fact that modern-day Christians often bring their own interpretation to their reading of the Bible, not considering how deeply their underrating of the Bible is affected by 21st.- century worldview.

The faith that we profess today was birthed in the land of Israel, and is inextricably linked with the culture, customs and societal mores of the Jewish people. Without having a good grip and understanding of the Bible background, we can’t come to a just and reasonable interpretation for our modern days, since the core Biblical message is universal and generational?

I need also to ask myself, am I clear on the notion that modern explosion of information and the surrounding noise could affect my thought process, and, sometimes, drifts my mind from the state of being unbiased thinker to leaning more toward emotion, based on past experiences?

May I suggest once more to all, that there is a difference that can't even be measured by the distance separating heaven from earth, between the loving true God of the Bible, who once took the form of a human, came and dwelt among us, taught for three years across the lands, left an example and a teaching that has changed the entire world. A teaching of moral and social system, upon which, nations have framed their constitutions and justice systems. Later, those nations became the envy of the rest of the world and the most desired destination for many people seeking a new home.

Yes, there is a magnificent difference between this proven fact, and the prevailing twisted message of the Bible by false prophets. It is unfortunate that many have fallen into the trap and ended up being hurt and rejecting the true God.

[Blastcat]

[center]Atheism, Group No.4 [/center]

I have presented previously three groups of atheist, through these ongoing intelligent discussions a fourth group was presented, which I suggest to be another form of “emotional reaction�
The first three groups were arguably presented in Post 1: Sun Sep 11, 2016, titled: Atheism, the art of defying logic, reason and commonsense.

Second death defying too..
Your title made me chuckle.

I DEFY logic.. lol.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 1 by E.G]

The problem, EG, is that the Bible does not provide a consistent picture of God as loving. In many OT passages, God is presented unmerciful, juridical, and absolutely draconian. Remember, God is asserted to have told Moses to act without mercy. As we read in Hosea 13:14,"I shall put compassion out of my sight." Vss. 15-16 say a blast will come from God that causing babes to fall by the sword, be smashed against the ground, and "pregnant women will be ripped up." And then you have OT laws, such as Exod. 21, that sanctify slavery.

The problem is that HE doesn't love everyone so the inconsistency you notice is due to different people being treated differently, not to any inconsistency in HIS character. That the difference is found in their invisible relationship with YHWH means that it cannot be assumed to be a part of their human traits of age, sex or position in life. Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation. or: their defect is that they are not HIS children...

All (only) sinners suffer and die as a judgment of their sin and how that judgement falls on any person is without regard for their age, sex postion in life but only the fulfillment of HIS purpose for our life on earth, that is, the redemption of HIS sinful elect... judging GOD's actions by human emotionalism is futile.

[TheBeardedDude]

[center]Atheism, Group No.4 [/center]

I have presented previously three groups of atheist, through these ongoing intelligent discussions a fourth group was presented, which I suggest to be another form of “emotional reaction�
The first three groups were arguably presented in Post 1: Sun Sep 11, 2016, titled: Atheism, the art of defying logic, reason and commonsense.

I would like to state first that the purpose of my open dialog is in line with the objective of this site debate format through civil and engaging debate in pursuit of knowledge and truth. There is nothing I would like to gain personally, and I have no intention to “defeat� others’ opinions, but rather, through dialog, the truth may reveal itself.

The discussion here will focus mainly on group -4

The scientific argument:

Mass can neither be created nor destroyed… and so the universe's entire mass can be concentrated at one point. Without God

- This concept is applied to any system closed to all transfers…an isolated system.
- The concept of mass conservation was discovered in chemical reactions by Antoine Lavoisier in the late 18th century, the closely related concept of matter conservation was found to hold good in chemistry to such high approximation, it failed only for the high energies treated by the later refinements of relativity theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass

The very fact that the theory failed for the high energies based on modern theory of relativity can be seen as an indicative of the presence of a higher power (energy, some prefer to name it “God�).

I humbly suggest you are missing at least one group.
4- Those who decided to research the claims made by religion and found them to be unsupportable. This group has found no compelling reason to believe in any god based on all evidence so far.

Claims made by religion? Who made those claims? are they trustworthy, and how can a claim made by a “religion� relate directly to the question of the existence, or nonexistence of God?

This group has found no compelling reason to believe in any god based on all evidence so far

what are those all evidence in your post? This is not fitting nicely within a “ Reasoning rebuttal�, rather emotional.

“there are an ever increasing number of folks who aren't constrained by the beliefs born in the Dark Ages, when Judeo-Christianity murdered science along with every man woman and child who disagreed with what didn't make sense in the Bible.�

This argument also could be classified as "emotional", since there is no evidence from Biblical verses requiring killing “science� or those who disagree. This act was taken by people who had their own motive, using religion as a cover. Therefore, this argument is rather week and frankly, irrelevant.

I propose that if these "people of God" would just quit using their religious beliefs as a cudgel 'Cause "You'll believe, or you'll burn in Hell"

Once again, this argument proves the point that there are these groups of crooks, within Christianity, who had their own motive, using religion as a cover.
The Biblical teaching (taken directly from the Bible) is, “I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.� John 10:10
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.� Matthew 11:28-30.

The question is, why some do allow themselves to listen and fall in a trap set by the crooks and those whom the Bible describes as, "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.� Matthew 7:15.

I would suggest that the overwhelming number of Christians "believe" in Christianity because they were indoctrinated into it, and they have simply bought into the teachings that if they dare to question this God or doubt him they will be cast into eternal damnation for their insubordination. I believe most Christians keep the faith out of fear of damnation, or the lust for the promised reward.

Scientifically, you need to provide a credible statistic supporting the claim “the overwhelming number of Christians�, on the other hand, I would agree with the general premise of your statement.

A classic example of “Group 4�:

My family is very religious, I have not had negative personal encounters with religion. I keep my beliefs to myself. I will dabble anonymously on the internet not for fame or fortune, but simplly to have an intellectually stimulating conversation. I don't fit into any of the categories you listed. Perhaps it's time you start revising your position.
I am an atheist because after years of biblical study I started finding issues with the written word itself. To me it became a self contradiction. it was no longer logically compatible. Yet it was not here where I gave up on religion and spirituality. I had just posited to myself that the written word had been lost to time and just trust in God to show me the way. This led to varies religious and/or spiritual beliefs. In the end one by one they continually failed in terms of logical and reason. At this point it would be intellectually dishonest for me to be a believer.

I would like to ask if you had a chance to examine the fact that modern-day Christians often bring their own interpretation to their reading of the Bible, not considering how deeply their underrating of the Bible is affected by 21st.- century worldview.

The faith that we profess today was birthed in the land of Israel, and is inextricably linked with the culture, customs and societal mores of the Jewish people. Without having a good grip and understanding of the Bible background, we can’t come to a just and reasonable interpretation for our modern days, since the core Biblical message is universal and generational?

I need also to ask myself, am I clear on the notion that modern explosion of information and the surrounding noise could affect my thought process, and, sometimes, drifts my mind from the state of being unbiased thinker to leaning more toward emotion, based on past experiences?

May I suggest once more to all, that there is a difference that can't even be measured by the distance separating heaven from earth, between the loving true God of the Bible, who once took the form of a human, came and dwelt among us, taught for three years across the lands, left an example and a teaching that has changed the entire world. A teaching of moral and social system, upon which, nations have framed their constitutions and justice systems. Later, those nations became the envy of the rest of the world and the most desired destination for many people seeking a new home.

Yes, there is a magnificent difference between this proven fact, and the prevailing twisted message of the Bible by false prophets. It is unfortunate that many have fallen into the trap and ended up being hurt and rejecting the true God.

"The very fact that the theory failed for the high energies based on modern theory of relativity can be seen as an indicative of the presence of a higher power (energy, some prefer to name it “God�). "

This is a guess you are making, not demonstrable fact.

How does an inability to explain a phenomenon result in a default answer being correct? How are there default answers to questions? How is the default answer "god?"

"Yes, there is a magnificent difference between this proven fact, and the prevailing twisted message of the Bible by false prophets. It is unfortunate that many have fallen into the trap and ended up being hurt and rejecting the true God."

You appear to be conflating internal facts (something being true within a given story) with them also being externally true. It might be an accepted belief within christianity, but that does not mean it is true about the world outside of christian dogma.

For instance, it is a proven fact that Gandalf the Grey died and that Gandalf the White came into being after this. But that proven fact is only true within the Lord of the Rings universe, it is not true with respect to our universe and our reality.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 12 by ttruscott]

Yes, what you say is true, and my point is that this is also a major part of the problem. In major biblical passages such as Matthew 5 and Luke 6, God is presented as loving, kind and compassionate to everyone, including the wicked. Be like God and love your enemies, that is the basic message of these passages. Elsewhere, however, the Bible contradicts all this, in the passages such as you just mentioned. For me, I believe that God is basically loving, that love is a fundamental dimension of God's being, and that means love is no on-again, off-again matter with God. God loves absolutely everyone, nit just a select few.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 12 by ttruscott]

Yes, what you say is true, and my point is that this is also a major part of the problem. In major biblical passages such as Matthew 5 and Luke 6, God is presented as loving, kind and compassionate to everyone, including the wicked. Be like God and love your enemies, that is the basic message of these passages. Elsewhere, however, the Bible contradicts all this, in the passages such as you just mentioned. For me, I believe that God is basically loving, that love is a fundamental dimension of God's being, and that means love is no on-again, off-again matter with God. God loves absolutely everyone, nit just a select few.

Since I cannot accept contradictions within Scripture I do accept the pov that there is a season for every purpose under heaven...sometimes HE goes to war against HIS enemies and destroys them for HIS purpose and sometimes HE tolerates them for another purpose and teaches us how to live with them rather than destroy them.

HE is a living GOD and not under the constraints of only one righteous purpose...

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 15 by ttruscott]

The inerrancy theory of Scripture is, of course, a very traditional dogma. But the inerrancy theory is just that: a theory, a collection of human-made assumptions about how God and Scripture may be related. Unfortunately, it became deified and set in cement as something that came right from the mouth of the Almighty himself. That' why I have a healthy skepticism for all traditions and dogmas. They all need to be checked out, just as does any collection of assumptions. Nobody comes to Scripture, with a blank mind. Everyone reads Scripture through a lens. For many, that lens has been the one provided by their church's teachings. But that is about the worst way to come into serious, modern biblical studies. Here, one seeks a more objective approach. Maybe the church lenses, the dogmas are correct, maybe not. let's check it out. Problem is, many are unwilling to do so and irrationally cling to the inerrancy theory. Nevertheless, when it comes to inerrancy, the fact there are at least 100 major, well-documented contradictions quickly shoots down that theory. In our current discussion, we are dealing with such a major contradiction. In much of the OT, God is presented as unloving and unmerciful, downright cruel and sadistic. However, in key portions of the NT, God is presented as essentially and always loving. In Mathew 5 and Luke 6, that is defiantly the case. God loves and is kind and compassionate with everyone, even the wicked. We are to love everyone, even our enemies.

[tam]

[Replying to post 15 by ttruscott]

The inerrancy theory of Scripture is, of course, a very traditional dogma. But the inerrancy theory is just that: a theory, a collection of human-made assumptions about how God and Scripture may be related. Unfortunately, it became deified and set in cement as something that came right from the mouth of the Almighty himself. That' why I have a healthy skepticism for all traditions and dogmas. They all need to be checked out, just as does any collection of assumptions. Nobody comes to Scripture, with a blank mind. Everyone reads Scripture through a lens. For many, that lens has been the one provided by their church's teachings. But that is about the worst way to come into serious, modern biblical studies. Here, one seeks a more objective approach. Maybe the church lenses, the dogmas are correct, maybe not. let's check it out. Problem is, many are unwilling to do so and irrationally cling to the inerrancy theory. Nevertheless, when it comes to inerrancy, the fact there are at least 100 major, well-documented contradictions quickly shoots down that theory. In our current discussion, we are dealing with such a major contradiction. In much of the OT, God is presented as unloving and unmerciful, downright cruel and sadistic. However, in key portions of the NT, God is presented as essentially and always loving. In Mathew 5 and Luke 6, that is defiantly the case. God loves and is kind and compassionate with everyone, even the wicked. We are to love everyone, even our enemies.

I have not read the thread. I just noticed the mpg when I gave an mpg to someone else, and clicked on it.


But the above is one of the most well written explanations on this topic that I have ever read.

I wouldn't agree with 'cruel or sadistic'; and some of the things I thought unloving or unmerciful (in the OT) only seemed that way due to the "lens" that I was using.


But other than that difference (though I agree that it can often seem that way), very well said.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 17 by tam]

Thank you.

Regarding my comment on God being cruel and sadistic: God does tell Moses to act without mercy (Deut. 7). In Hosea 13, God says he is going without mercy and this will led to women having their wombs ripped open and their infants smashed on the ground. Also, note Exod, 21, which sanctifies slavery, selling your daughter into slavery, and beating slaves, only just don't kill them. Now, by any stretch of teh imagination, one has to admit the OT here and elsewhere depicts God as cruel and inhumane.