The Facile Caricatures of Religious Belief

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Divine Insight
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The Facile Caricatures of Religious Belief

Post #1

Post by Divine Insight »

The following complaint was filed by a theist as he leaves the forum asking to have his account deleted:
The debates have turned into debating facile caricatures of religious belief.
Just for the sake of clarity:

Facile - def., (especially of a theory or argument) appearing neat and comprehensive only by ignoring the true complexities of an issue; superficial.

Caricatures - def., a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.

Question for Debate:

Do you feel that the above description is an honest assessment of the debates in Christianity and Apologetics?

If possible please explain why you feel this is or isn't the case.
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Re: The Facile Caricatures of Religious Belief

Post #21

Post by marco »

Divine Insight wrote: The following complaint was filed by a theist as he leaves the forum asking to have his account deleted:
The debates have turned into debating facile caricatures of religious belief.
Do you feel that the above description is an honest assessment of the debates in Christianity and Apologetics?
It's an honest assessment of some of the debates in which he took part. Different people use different instruments of debate, ranging in sophistication from the cudgel to the nuclear warhead and I suppose the person felt insulted by some of the arguments used against him. But if his observation covered all debates, he's wrong.
I am often impressed by the knowledge injected into arguments on both sides of the debate.

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Post #22

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 4 by jgh7]
jgh7 wrote:
My guess: they probably got offended by a Santa Claus comparison.


Believers are a bit like "lovers"... some of them have very thin skins when it comes to the object of their love.

Don't you go talking bad about who they love....


:)

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Post #23

Post by Neatras »

I do wonder if he would classify scientific debates in the titular sub-forum as being similar in caricatures for religious belief. Because in my experience, the misinformation and strawmen used to mischaracterize scientific theories is much more rampant. I've had experience with theists claiming that "evolutionists only believe in BB-evolution because they reject God" at least as often as, if not more often than, any non-theist making a caricature of a theistic position.

I won't excuse either sides' antics, but I'm curious as to whether or not the person making the claim in the OP is concerned about the same happening on the opposite side of the debate. What's more, is it a situation where theists have been making caricatures for ages, and only now is the field level enough for them to have actual grievances with the practice?

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Re: The Facile Caricatures of Religious Belief

Post #24

Post by marco »

hoghead1 wrote:

Too many laity think they are experts simply because they have read a book or an article somewhere or heard something in their Sunday-school class. My goal is to try and fill in the missing information so that they have a better perspective.
Art traditionally conceals itself, hoghead, rather than announces its arrival. You seem to use the term "laity" in the way that others use "lumpen proletariat". My goal here is to debate and not disseminate in a deliberate way any knowledge that my education has accorded me. I wonder what " a better perspective " might be. Once you have explained yours, it is perfectly possible that one of these ill-informed laity might just successfully disagree with your theory, for theology does not deal in the same hard facts that one of my areas, mathematics, does.

As it happens, I find your discussions absorbing.

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Post #25

Post by marco »

Neatras wrote:

I won't excuse either sides' antics, but I'm curious as to whether or not the person making the claim in the OP is concerned about the same happening on the opposite side of the debate. What's more, is it a situation where theists have been making caricatures for ages, and only now is the field level enough for them to have actual grievances with the practice?
There's a lot of truth in this. Take the insulting remark: "The fool in his heart hath said there is no God." How could anyone think the Rabbi a fool when he prayed to the God of his people to help a little boy who was being hanged by Nazis, but whose lack of weight caused him simply to suffer prolonged agony? He shouted in despair: "There is no God."

Anyway, the best situation if to have mutual respect. You never know, God might one day join in, somehow, and confound the doubters.

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Re: The Facile Caricatures of Religious Belief

Post #26

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 20 by Divine Insight]

I don't think you quite understand my position, so let me clarify. I don't see myself as a Moderator or referee here, simply because I am not. I do see myself as a resource person. I have a Ph.D. in theology and that gives me the advantage of having a broader information base to draw upon than do many other members. That's not being conceited, that's just being honest. My goal is to bring into the discussion resource materials and additional information, if I can, that others may have overlooked and that would enrich their knowledge base.

For example, you raised the important issue of what kind of a God. Now, I'm not going to address that question in this post, as I feel that is off the OP. However, if I were in a discussion on what kind of God, I would want to point out that while many assume there is only one model of God in Christianity, in point of fact there are two a present. I would describe what is called the "classical" or traditional model of God and then how contemporary, "neo-classical" theists, such as myself, have seen fit to revise the model and why.

If the OP were on evidence for God, then I would want to share what I know about the classical arguments for the existence of God and then how these arguments have been revised by contemporary theologians and philosophers. My immediate concern would not be whether I am winning over followers. My immediate concern is how well others know the available material.

When I see blanket claims being made about theists doing this or that, my initial concern is to address the stereotyping that may be involved here. Not all theists think or act alike. For example, fundamentalists have tried to pass anti-evolution bans in 26 states. However, right-wing fundamentalists do not represent the whole of contemporary Christianity. Liberal Christians, such as myself, find such legislation abhorrent.

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Re: The Facile Caricatures of Religious Belief

Post #27

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 24 by marco]

Well, I certainly do not want to put down and embarrass lay persons. However, truth of the matter is that many laity do not have a substantial education in theology, philosophy, and science, etc. There is not doubt about that. And there is no doubt that laity, however well educated they may be, often form and hold strongly to opinions that are way off base from the actual subject matter. I know I've sure done it. I'm part of a historical rail society that runs a steam locomotive. We all came into it as lay persons, amateurs, and we all had some pretty definite ideas about what life on a locomotive was all about. Boy, did we get a rude awakening. Luckily, we had good teachers and loads of training. Happens al the time. Those of us who are more knowledgeable in certain areas should share what we know. That's what education is all about. A good debate just isn't about shooting someone else down. It's about sharing information, helping both sides sharpen up.

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Re: The Facile Caricatures of Religious Belief

Post #28

Post by OnceConvinced »

Divine Insight wrote:
If possible please explain why you feel this is or isn't the case.
Nope, these are the words of an angry former member, who was easily offended, who was not fairing well in debate. From what I could see he was becoming more and more frustrated at not fairing well and resorting more and more to personal attacks.

We have plenty of great debates here. We have plenty of great topics. Just because one may not like a topic or feel offended by a particular topic, does not mean that things have gone downhill.

This site has thrived for many years now. It may be that one day it will die a natural death, but I see no signs of that happening yet.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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Re: The Facile Caricatures of Religious Belief

Post #29

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 28 by OnceConvinced]

Since we do not know the identity of the member who left, don't you think its a bit premature to assume he or she was angry because they didn't fair well in debates?

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Re: The Facile Caricatures of Religious Belief

Post #30

Post by Zzyzx »

.
hoghead1 wrote: Since we do not know the identity of the member who left, don't you think its a bit premature to assume he or she was angry because they didn't fair well in debates?
Some of us DO know the identity of the person. Anyone can view his 'resignation' statement at http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 832#834832
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